position and hold at an angle

A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
be straight on.

So, I guess I was wrong. (dang - that's twice now!)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
be straight on.

You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

"john smith" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Jose wrote:

A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
be straight on.

You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

I don't do a 360, but I do turn toward the approach end and look and then turn on to the runway...

Position and hold is normally used at tower controlled airports..

At uncontrolled airports.. I do not plan on taxing onto the active unless I
can take off right away.
And from behind the hold line I can see most of the base and all of the
final whilst sitting with my nose 90 degrees to the take off direction.

BT

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jose wrote:

A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
be straight on.

You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

You can do what taildragger pilots are taught (at least the older ones)
and do a 360 to scan the pattern prior to takeoff.

The point was to be able to have a continuous watch behind you while
waiting for takeoff, while at the same time being ready for an immediate
takeoff (the fraction of a second it takes to turn 30 degrees while on
the roll is insignificant).

Doing donuts on the numbers while awaiting takeoff clearance gives a new
meaning to "position and hold... whoa there... yee haw!... comone little
dawgiee..."

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

BTIZ wrote:
Position and hold is normally used at tower controlled airports..
At uncontrolled airports.. I do not plan on taxing onto the active unless I
can take off right away.
And from behind the hold line I can see most of the base and all of the
final whilst sitting with my nose 90 degrees to the take off direction.

that's what I was thinking too... however, there are uncontrolled
airports *without* taxiways (you taxi on the runway), so I reckoned
that was what they were talking about,

--Sylvain

Doing donuts on the numbers while awaiting takeoff clearance gives a new
meaning to "position and hold... whoa there... yee haw!... comone little
dawgiee..."

I can add a little power, roll forward a couple feet and hit a brake and
spin a 360 pretty quickly! Think of it as a controlled ground loop.

Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.

Jose wrote:
A few months ago there was a discussion here about positioning on the
runway at an angle to better see traffic from the rear while awaiting
takeoff clearance, and I opined in the face of dissent by Steven
McNicoll that it was a good idea.

I had a chance to fly a 172 while I was out west and was unable to see
any better that way from a Skyhawk, which was the OP's aircraft. I
still think it makes sense to angle a Cherokee, but a 172 might as well
be straight on.

So, I guess I was wrong. (dang - that's twice now!)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Yossarian" wrote:

Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.

Position and hold (P&H) is an accident waiting to happen. How much
time does it take to wait at the holding line then move into position
and depart versus P&H and depart? 15 seconds? I prefer to verify
that the approach path is clear before venturing out on the runway and
departing.

Ron Lee

"Ron Lee" wrote:

Hawthorne, CA has recently begun a policy of not issuing position and
hold clearances. Can't say I like the policy.

Position and hold (P&H) is an accident waiting to happen. How much
time does it take to wait at the holding line then move into position
and depart versus P&H and depart? 15 seconds?

It can be enough to be the difference between having required runway
separation and not having it. At a busy airport, 15 seconds/departure will
really add up over the course of a day's operations. ATC may not have it to
spare.

Want to p. o. the tower controller at Hobby Airport in Houston? Just diddle
around stopping at an angle or spinning donuts when given a p&h instruction.
Decline the p&h if it makes you nervous, but be prepared to wait a looonnngg
time to take off, as ATC will assume they have a kook on their hands.

I prefer to verify that the approach path is clear before venturing out on
the runway and
departing.

That's fine, but sometimes you have to make allowances for the situation.
Either you're going to work with the flow at a busy airport or you're going
to be a problem for everyone.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM