Debacle: Flight test of Diana-2

At 12:00 16 October 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:38:08 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote:

You have to be kidding. Whatever happened to 'the
customer
is always right'.

It's a load of nonsense. No-one has a right to fly
any aircraft.

Ian

What you say is absolutely true but on the other hand
no-one is forced to buy it either. If the company do
not sell aircraft they have failed in their aim and
lets us be frank this company are not Schemp Hirth,
DG-Flugzeugbau / Glaser-Dirks or Schleicher and do
not have a track record of building excellent gliders.
I would have thought that a company trying to sell
a new glider would want to encourage sales but obviously
my idea of business is outdated. What ever the rights
and wrongs it does not seem to me that the manufacturers
of the Diana 2 are going out of their way to encourage
customers in fact I detect a certain arrogance in their
approach. Building gliders does not make money, you
actually have to sell them, and what does this debacle
say about their likely after sales service I wonder.
If someone who wanted to sell me a glider would not
let me fly it I would certainly take my money elsewhere.

bumper wrote:
I've only seen the original Diana in the flesh, and the Diana-2 in Sharma's
pictures. From a mechanical and esthetical perspective, the Diana-2 looks to
be inovative and nicely done. At first blush, it appears they have not cut
corners in their design, but rather have made those decisions based on, "how
can we do this best".

Alexander's recent response seemed reasonable, as did Sharma's initial
indignation. The whole incident smacks of misunderstanding, lack of
communication, emotional overreaction, not wanting to hurt another's
feelings, and maybe personality conflict. I'd suggest we call it mutual
combat and drop the whole thing.

If I were interested in the Diana-2, I'd not let any of these posts dissuade
me.

If I were to avoid a manufacturer because I knew a very unhappy customer
of theirs (potential or otherwise), I would not be able to buy a glider
from any of the German manufacturers, and some of the other companies,
either. As bumper points out, it happens for various reasons, even when
both parties seem like reasonable people.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

As i commute around my living area these days, I smell the aroma of
fetilizer,
mostly swine type.

Advertisement????


"anti-spam-add-remove-dashes-and-dot---naresh-"
"anti-spam-add-remove-dashes-and-dot---naresh-"@-neshe-dot-com wrote in
message ...
Hello All,

Late last night, as I was preparing to go to our club (we are trying to
save the gliding activity at our club and not let the club sell the
gliders) for a meeting, Mr. Alexander Mueller called me on the phone. He
said that, it was a mistake to not let me fly the glider.

I do not want to write the entire 45minute conversation since:
1. There will be comments from several on RAS: BUT WE DON'T KNOW DO WE,
WHO SAID WHAT AND WHAT WAS SAID etc.
2. It would be unfair of me to say what Mr. Mueller volunteered to say to
me. Therefore, I'm forced to leave the details.

To save the lamenting any further, here is what I believe is fair if, Mr.
Alexander Muller indeed concedes that it was a mistake to not let me fly.
I would forget the whole issue and consider a proper apology made by them
if either one of the two below is done before the end of October 2005:

1. Mr. Beres or Mr. Mueller, bring the Diana-2 to our Airfield in Parma,
Italy, to let me fly it. I'll pay for my tows, they pay their costs of
being here, boarding and lodging. The weather here is fine, so I believe
that this would be a better recourse. In addition, they will get first
hand impression of what Italian hospitality means.

2. Messrs Beres and Mueller, invite me to their factory, AT THEIR expense,
and let me fly the glider there.

In both the cases, they will allow me to take as many photos and videos as
I like.

Just to clarify, to a previous post by Ian, No, I'm not a journalist, and
they were aware of all the details you so kindly have assumed.

Thank you RAS!! Thank you for your support.
Best regards,
Naresh

pbc76049 wrote:


Item 4 is subjective at best. The aircraft meets JAR 22.

I'm not aware of any standardized crash testing procedure for gliders,
and if the the manufacturer of my ASH 26 E has knowledge of such tests,
they haven't shared it with any of the customers I know. It would be
wonderful if such data was available, but if you must have this data for
any glider in production, I think you will have pay someone to do a
crash test on it.

Unless you are an engineer competent in composite design for crash
protection, I don't think you will learn anything about the design by
asking "where the Kevlar is".


Item 5 is conjecture on your part. You are
presupposng a failure mode not in evidence
by inferring that it is problematic.

I don't think any of the manufacturers test their gliders until they
flutter, because it is very dangerous. The glider is likely to be so
damaged or uncontrollable, the test pilot will have to parachute out of
it. Certification requires testing to a certain speed beyond the Vne;
above that, and you are a test pilot. If you want to "know what margin
you will have when you are in an emergency" then you should fly so that
your emergencies do not exceed Vne. Even if the manufacturer the exact
flutter speed, he would be smart not to reveal that speed, for fear that
pilots would then use that speed as the "real" Vne.


Item 13 is again subjective. Properly assembled trailing
edges do not delaminate regardless of their construction
method. Your presupposition that fabric wrapped edges
are superior is not based in fact, just an opinion you hold.
Attempting to show one Trailing Edge construction method
as superior to another again shows the limitations of your
composite construction background.

My ASH 26 E does not use fabric wrapped trailing edges, nor did my ASW
20, yet they both seem like fine machines. I would feel rather foolish
telling Gerhard Waibel or Martin Heide the proper way to build a glider!

It appears Neshe sets very high and very unusual standards for a glider.
If I were a glider manufacturer, I would pray he became interested in
some other manufacturer's glider.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

anti-spam-add-remove-dashes-and-dot---naresh- wrote:

1. For the purpose of the event at which Mr. Mueller invited me, I NEVER
said to him that I'd come to see the glider even if I couldn't fly it.

Can we this invitation letter?

/jancsika

Jancsika wrote:
anti-spam-add-remove-dashes-and-dot---naresh- wrote:

1. For the purpose of the event at which Mr. Mueller invited me, I
NEVER said to him that I'd come to see the glider even if I couldn't
fly it.

Once mo can we see this invitation letter?

/jancsika

Jancsika,

Please read my response on www.neshe.com titled "Where are the Diana-2
debacle posts". I agree with some others here that there is no point in
beating this issue any more.

Thank you,
Naresh

Jancsika wrote:

Jancsika wrote:

anti-spam-add-remove-dashes-and-dot---naresh- wrote:

1. For the purpose of the event at which Mr. Mueller invited me, I
NEVER said to him that I'd come to see the glider even if I couldn't
fly it.


Once mo can we see this invitation letter?

/jancsika

Alexander wrote:

The testing customers were positively thrilled about the way Diana 2 is
flying. Some feedback: the glider is easy to fly and also safe. None of
the pilots (among them also competition pilots and instructors) could
make the glider spin or stall completely.
....
Mr Sharma said to me personally that he had only 200 hours and
no experience on racing class gliders.

Hmmm... Now, you must decide: Is that glider (15m!) "easy and safe to
fly" or do you need more than 200 hours to be able to handle it?

Stefan

Stefan schreef:

Alexander wrote:

The testing customers were positively thrilled about the way Diana 2 is
flying. Some feedback: the glider is easy to fly and also safe. None of
the pilots (among them also competition pilots and instructors) could
make the glider spin or stall completely.
...
Mr Sharma said to me personally that he had only 200 hours and
no experience on racing class gliders.

Hmmm... Now, you must decide: Is that glider (15m!) "easy and safe to
fly" or do you need more than 200 hours to be able to handle it?

Stefan

There are plenty of glider pilots, even with 500 hours or more who
can`t handle performance gliders. They can in common situations like a
local flight but when in trouble the plane is too fast, too nervous,
just too hard for them to handle.

Most of those pilots know that themselves, others buy a glider and get
scared in flight, few try to test-fly someone elses glider.

At 13:00 17 October 2005, Chester D wrote:
Stefan schreef:

Alexander wrote:

The testing customers were positively thrilled about
the way Diana 2 is
flying. Some feedback: the glider is easy to fly
and also safe. None of
the pilots (among them also competition pilots and
instructors) could
make the glider spin or stall completely.
...
Mr Sharma said to me personally that he had only
200 hours and
no experience on racing class gliders.

Hmmm... Now, you must decide: Is that glider (15m!)
'easy and safe to
fly' or do you need more than 200 hours to be able
to handle it?

Stefan

There are plenty of glider pilots, even with 500 hours
or more who
can`t handle performance gliders. They can in common
situations like a
local flight but when in trouble the plane is too fast,
too nervous,
just too hard for them to handle.

We are not talking open class here, the Diana is a
15 metre glider, unflapped with a claimed LD of 50.

Nothing special about that except the performance so
what is so difficult. I don't hear people saying that
a Discus (1 or 2) LS8 or any of the Scheilcher gliders
are anything but straightforward providing the pilot
has received the proper training.
One wonders what makes this glider so different from
those marketed by the established manufacturers apart
from the seeming determination of the makers to only
sell to those they deem suitable. No wonder that gliding
is in decline if it is so difficult to find someone
who is prepared to treat customers as a valuable commodity.
However good the product an uncaring and arrogant supplier
will put me off every time.



Most of those pilots know that themselves, others buy
a glider and get
scared in flight, few try to test-fly someone elses
glider.

Not the case here is it.