Jet Crew: Reverse Thrusters Failed in Chicago - Washington Post

Mid sixties. United dropped one at Salt Lake and another in Lake
Michigan coming into O'Hare. America at Cincinnati. The high T tail
exacerbated the sink rate so Boeing and the airlines revised the landing
configurations .

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:5_jnf.28491$QW2.16430@dukeread08...
If I remember correctly, the 727 had a series of landing
accidents because the full flap setting was about 50-60
degrees and if the pilot got too slow, they could not
recover. Maximum extension was reduced.
Looking on the Internet, I found a further limitation for
couple approaches with certain autopilots. Is there any
early 727 pilot out there with the facts on the first 727
and any changes in certification re flaps?

Because the left gear is used for wheel spinup.

I have about 20K hours in Boeings and made 9000+ landing in the 737.
The 737 NG engineering is awesome. Nothing wrong with the spoiler
system. Every SWA pliot expects spoiler deployment on touchdown. If it
does not occur, they immediately deploy manually.

If you make a good wet runway landing, spoiler deployment is never a
problem. "Plant" the aircrat on the 1000 ft. maker..

OBTW James, they are NOT "on-off mircroswitches" but proximity
switches. A lot more reliable than mechanical switches.

Brian Wilson wrote:

Sorry Jim, you don't have any authority to tell anyone to bug OFF. This is a
public newsgroup. If you don't like someone's opinion feel free to post your
own, but you're not going to stop others from posting here.

Brian, thanks for that. There are some incredibly over-inflated egos in
this group, and it's refreshing to see that not all of you high-timers
share that personality defect.

--
Peter

This should create a lot of comments.

"The -700 was certified using reverse thrust for landing. SWA uses an
on board performance computer (opc) to calculate T.O. and landing data.
From the F.O.M.;

"The opc on the 700 takes into account the thrust reverser's for
landing,certificated that way, unlike most other aircraft."

It's true the classic fleet (and every other a/c I'm aware of)
considers reverse thrust for landing simply a bonus. Not the -700.

Jim,

The B-737-700 engine, the CFM56-7, is 61 inches in diameter at the fan
blades.

Bob Moore wrote:
Then again.we former Naval Aviators received a bit better training in
controlling approach speed and touchdown point than the average pilot.
:-)

Bob Moore

As passengers we usually know when a Naval Aviator lands.

Ron Lee

Ron Lee wrote:
Bob Moore wrote:
Then again.we former Naval Aviators received a bit better training in
controlling approach speed and touchdown point than the average pilot.
:-)

Bob Moore

As passengers we usually know when a Naval Aviator lands.



The 'roids never lie!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Do a Google for "Boeing 727 landing flaps" and you will find
several NTSB reports about flap settings and crashes do to
autopilot problems. I do remember there was an article
about the FAA/Boeing restricting flap extension after a
series of landing accidents. Maybe some one remembers, I
think 40 was the reduced setting.

I just have a clear memory of the article in FLYING or Air
Progress.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 122...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
|
| If I remember correctly, the 727 had a series of landing
| accidents because the full flap setting was about 50-60
| degrees and if the pilot got too slow, they could not
| recover. Maximum extension was reduced.
| Looking on the Internet, I found a further limitation
for
| couple approaches with certain autopilots. Is there any
| early 727 pilot out there with the facts on the first
727
| and any changes in certification re flaps?
|
| Go back to your little airplanes Jim. The following
article is
| from the May-June 1965 issue of the Boeing Airliner. Is
that
| far enough back for you?
|
| "Flap Angle
| One of the factors having the greatest effects
| on stall and initial buffet speeds is the angle the
| flaps are set at during flight. The 727 flap angles
| are given in trailing edge deflections of 0, 2, 5,
| 15, 25, 30 and 40 degrees. An increase in flap
| angle increases the camber of the wing so that
| it will produce the same lift at a lower speed than
| a smaller flap angle setting would produce. The
| effect of flap angle on initial buffet and stall can
| be seen in Figures 2, 3, and 4 for flap angles 0,
| 15, and 40 degrees. The graphs also present the
| points where the stick shaker operates and shows
| the 7 percent margin required by Civil Air Regulations
| for adequate stall warning. In all cases, except at 30
| and 40 degree flaps, initial buffet will occur at a
| speed higher than the 107 percent stall speed
| requirement. However, initial buffet is never less
| than 4 percent above stall speed even at 40° flaps.
| Since the reference landing speed (Vref) is 130
| percent of the stall speed, there is adequate speed
| margin for landing."
|
| Besides flying the line in the -200 series from 1986-
| 1991, I taught the -100 series back in 1977-78.
|
| Yes, there were a couple of early landing accidents
| attributed to excessive sink rates and the fix was to
| change the technique that the pilots were using.
|
| Would you like a lesson on the flap/speedbrake interaction
| and the sink rates that it causes?
|
| Bob Moore
| ATP B-707 B-727 L-188
| PanAm (retired)

Do you know if part of that was to limit landing flaps to 40
degrees?


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


"sfb" wrote in message
news:KZknf.21270$qF6.2269@trnddc01...
| Mid sixties. United dropped one at Salt Lake and another
in Lake
| Michigan coming into O'Hare. America at Cincinnati. The
high T tail
| exacerbated the sink rate so Boeing and the airlines
revised the landing
| configurations .
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:5_jnf.28491$QW2.16430@dukeread08...
| If I remember correctly, the 727 had a series of landing
| accidents because the full flap setting was about 50-60
| degrees and if the pilot got too slow, they could not
| recover. Maximum extension was reduced.
| Looking on the Internet, I found a further limitation
for
| couple approaches with certain autopilots. Is there any
| early 727 pilot out there with the facts on the first
727
| and any changes in certification re flaps?
|
|
|

They are magnetic and not mechanical, but still they are
either ON or OFF... correct and thank you.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"lynn" wrote in message
ups.com...
| Because the left gear is used for wheel spinup.
|
| I have about 20K hours in Boeings and made 9000+ landing
in the 737.
| The 737 NG engineering is awesome. Nothing wrong with the
spoiler
| system. Every SWA pliot expects spoiler deployment on
touchdown. If it
| does not occur, they immediately deploy manually.
|
| If you make a good wet runway landing, spoiler deployment
is never a
| problem. "Plant" the aircrat on the 1000 ft. maker..
|
| OBTW James, they are NOT "on-off mircroswitches" but
proximity
| switches. A lot more reliable than mechanical switches.
|