Private Planes: Freedom, Security, and Responsibility

by "Jim Macklin" Dec 14, 2005 at
01:37 PM


It is all Bill Gates fault, Microsoft Flight Simulator
software allows any sky lune itic to practice the task of
flying into a building in their choice of aircraft. I think
the earlier versions even had the NYC skyline and WTC on the
box cover.

Certainly, it is not possible to learn how to steer and
airplane anywhere else in the world, except the USA. There
are no airplanes in the Mid-East, Far-East, Africa or any
place other than Florida, Texas, and California.

What I want to know is when will the government and the
anti-weapons/self-defense crowd admit that the security
rules themselves left the passenger and crew in an unarmed
and [mentally] defenseless state. Had every passenger had a
6 shot 38 or 45 revolver and instructions to , sit in your
seat and shot anybody who causes trouble, NONE of those
airliners would have been hijacked.

True about MS Flight Simulator. I used to fly it around the WTC (and
Megis field) myself. But, as you know, the terrorists trained at GA
schools. This is a FACT, and has been well publicized.

As far as your arming the passengers scenario, the govt. did "admit" this
implicitly by allowing pilots to be armed.

Where I live, most everyone is armed (including yours truly, with my handy
dandy Mossberg), and there is virtually no crime, so I kinda/sorta see your
point. But, I wonder how comfortable the pilots and other passengers would
feel knowing that most of their fellow passengers were armed??

I fly SWA occassionally. Imagine what would happen during their boarding
process if most of the passengers were armed?

typo corrected
"Jim Macklin" wrote
in message news:Rw_nf.28952$QW2.19358@dukeread08...
| It is all Bill Gates fault, Microsoft Flight Simulator
| software allows any sky lune itic to practice the task
of
| flying into a building in their choice of aircraft. I
think
| the earlier versions even had the NYC skyline and WTC on
the
| box cover.
|
| Certainly, it is not possible to learn how to steer an
| airplane anywhere else in the world, except the USA.
There
| are no airplanes in the Mid-East, Far-East, Africa or any
| place other than Florida, Texas, and California.
|
| What I want to know is when will the government and the
| anti-weapons/self-defense crowd admit that the security
| rules themselves left the passenger and crew in an unarmed
| and [mentally] defenseless state. Had every passenger had
a
| 6 shot 38 or 45 revolver and instructions to , sit in your
| seat and shot anybody who causes trouble, NONE of those
| airliners would have been hijacked.
| To those who will say that the possibility of gun fire in
| the cabin would cause explosive decompression, remember
that
| FAR 25 airplanes are designed and have been so for
decades,
| to resist and handle damage to the structure and
explosions
| that can leave a 20 sq. ft. hole in the fuselage. The out
| flow valve will just close a little bit for a few dozen
| bullets holes.
|
| But it is felt that death in a plane crash or with your
| throat cut by a terrorists is better than having citizens
| armed and acting in their own best interest.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| --
| The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
| But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
| some support
| http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
|
|
|
| "Skylune" wrote in message
|
lkaboutaviation.com...
|| Would one expect the airlines to act responsibly and
| admit their
|| failure to provide adequate security previous to 9/11,
and
| work
|| collaboratively to rectify their shortcoming?
||
|| Commercial aviation provided the vehicles. GA provided
| the training.
|| Would one expect GA schools to act responsibly and admit
| their failure to
|| provide adequate security previous to 9/11?
||
|
|

by " Dec 14, 2005 at 11:49
AM


Come on, Sky-buffoon...

snip
I suspect anybody with a (then) current copy of MS Flight Sim could
have done what the terrorist monkeys did after a few hours flying a 737
around in VR - it ain't rocket science.

I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS Flight Sim. But, that
is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists trained at GA schools.


I need to pull out the handy John Adams quote again: "Facts are stubborn
things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates
of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

wrote:

Come on, Sky-buffoon... Who could have ever imagined airliners being
used in such an insidious and evil way before 9/11?

Didn't one of those "Jack Ryan" novels have an airliner deliberately crashed
into Congress?

- Andrew

I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS Flight Sim. But, that
is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists trained at GA
schools

Yes they did. Many flight school students were/are Arabic. The
overwhelming majority are not terrorists. What do you suggest might
have prevented the attack? If you're going to suggest tighter screening
of foreign students, that's not up to the flight schools, that would be
a gov't function as it would involve the State Dept. So, tell me how GA
was responsible again?

Here's a parallel for you. Tim McVeigh rented a Ryder truck filled with
fertilizer that blew away half a building in OKC. Should the feds have
had tighter screening standards in place for truck rentals before this
happened? I doubt anybody would have suspected a rental being used for
such evil intent. Where do you draw the line? What reasonable standard
exists that won't curtail the rights & freedoms of law abiding folks?


I need to pull out the handy John Adams quote again: "Facts are stubborn
things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the
dictates
of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

You quote this as if it helps make your case somehow. It doesn't. Shoo,
fly...

The GLASER bullet will penetrate the fuselage unless it hits
a wet body first. I recently fired some Glasers into some
standard 1 gallon plastic (disposable type) water jugs.
None of the slugs exited the water jug, there were many
small lead pellets and a few bits of copper jacket inside
the remains of the jug. The Glaser is to protect the other
people on the airplane, not the airplane.

FAR 25 requires that the pressurized aircraft be able to
withstand explosions, engine disintegration and maintain a
livable cabin with a 20 sq. ft. hole. That size hole would
require about 1/2 a ton of bullets.
I have spoken with several Boeing engineers about this and
we all agree that handguns in the cabin do not pose a
serious threat to the aircraft.

Let's imagine a Western movie, the deputy runs into the
Marshall's office shouting that the outlaws are going to rob
the stage when it get 5 miles out of town, Can you imagine
the laughter, anywhere in the world, if the Marshall
said,"Take the guns away from the passengers to avoid
violence."




--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

wrote in message
oups.com...
| Wow. Jim, you and I are definitely on the same wavelength
here re
| Microsoft : )
|
| BTW, I think Glaser safety slugs are considered safe for
ventilating
| bad guys but not damaging aircraft..
|

You are getting very close to my originally flippant answer to the
aircraft 9-11 hijack etc thing:

1) Reinforce the cockpit doors including with kevlar to make the
bulkhead bullet-proof.
2) A simple loaded light weight single shot pistol under every oxygen
mask panel.
3) The pilots have a button.....

At this point majority rules.

Imagine if this is what had happened on the morning of
9-11...
Welcome aboard Mr. Atta, your seat is 11 C, do you have your
gun?
No, just a box cutter.

We'll we are handing out guns to every passenger who wants
to be armed, would you prefer a S&W or a Colt or Ruger?
Just select the gun you want and have a seat. Please be
careful, anybody who causes trouble will be shot. Have a
nice day and thank you for choosing to fly with us today.


Do you think any of the airliners would have been hijacked
by a 5 man terror crew with perhaps a 100 armed and alert
passengers [being armed tends to make you alert]?

BTW, Pilots on the airlines were required to be armed before
the mid-late 60's, to protect the mail. Your postman
walking the street also often had a gun in his big leather
bag. But LBJs postmaster general took them away.

The government is dragging its feet as much as possible to
keep flight crews unarmed, making as many obstacles to
getting a pilot armed as they can. The boss of the program
was John McGrew, the former head of the BATF and as anti-gun
a person as can be found short of HCI.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm





"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by "Jim Macklin"
Dec 14, 2005 at
| 01:37 PM
|
|
| It is all Bill Gates fault, Microsoft Flight Simulator
| software allows any sky lune itic to practice the task
of
| flying into a building in their choice of aircraft. I
think
| the earlier versions even had the NYC skyline and WTC on
the
| box cover.
|
| Certainly, it is not possible to learn how to steer and
| airplane anywhere else in the world, except the USA.
There
| are no airplanes in the Mid-East, Far-East, Africa or any
| place other than Florida, Texas, and California.
|
| What I want to know is when will the government and the
| anti-weapons/self-defense crowd admit that the security
| rules themselves left the passenger and crew in an unarmed
| and [mentally] defenseless state. Had every passenger had
a
| 6 shot 38 or 45 revolver and instructions to , sit in your
| seat and shot anybody who causes trouble, NONE of those
| airliners would have been hijacked.
|
| True about MS Flight Simulator. I used to fly it around
the WTC (and
| Megis field) myself. But, as you know, the terrorists
trained at GA
| schools. This is a FACT, and has been well publicized.
|
| As far as your arming the passengers scenario, the govt.
did "admit" this
| implicitly by allowing pilots to be armed.
|
| Where I live, most everyone is armed (including yours
truly, with my handy
| dandy Mossberg), and there is virtually no crime, so I
kinda/sorta see your
| point. But, I wonder how comfortable the pilots and other
passengers would
| feel knowing that most of their fellow passengers were
armed??
|
| I fly SWA occassionally. Imagine what would happen during
their boarding
| process if most of the passengers were armed?
|
|
|
|

by " Dec 14, 2005 at 12:30
PM


I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS Flight Sim. But,
that
is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists trained at GA
schools

Yes they did. Many flight school students were/are Arabic. The
overwhelming majority are not terrorists. What do you suggest might
have prevented the attack? If you're going to suggest tighter screening
of foreign students, that's not up to the flight schools, that would be
a gov't function as it would involve the State Dept. So, tell me how GA
was responsible again?

Good points.

To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said that GA schools
provided the training.

There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling on FBI
bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.

I actually think the flight schools bear little of the responsibility,
even though they were roundly criticized right after the terrorist
*******s committed their cowardly attacks.

I'm fairly certain that new security requirements have been established
for foreign-born trainees.

I'm not buying the McVeigh/Ryder truck analogy. I'm pretty sure that
people purchasing large quantities of nitrogen based products such as
fertilizer face some type of restrictions or scrutiny today, but I'm not
sure.

They may have trained at flight schools in the USA, but did
they learn how to do it here? Are the restrictions
effective? On the same line of reasoning...
The shoe bomber was trying to use matches to light a fuse in
his shoes...When was the last time you heard about a
terrorist bomber who did not have a 9 volt battery and a
switch to set their bomb off? The shoe bomber was not
intended to blow up the airplane, his task was to yank out
chain and make us take our shoes off.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by " Dec 14,
2005 at 11:49
| AM
|
|
| Come on, Sky-buffoon...
|
| snip
| I suspect anybody with a (then) current copy of MS Flight
Sim could
| have done what the terrorist monkeys did after a few hours
flying a 737
| around in VR - it ain't rocket science.
|
| I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS Flight
Sim. But, that
| is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists
trained at GA schools.
|
|
| I need to pull out the handy John Adams quote again:
"Facts are stubborn
| things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations,
or the dictates
| of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and
evidence."
|
|
|
|
|