Let a friend fly the plane. Legal?

wrote in message
...
Mike Murdock wrote:
: But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
: the controls, but then neither may log that time.

: As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log
the
: time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole
manipulator
: of the flight controls or not. More than one person can certainly log
PIC
: time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can log PIC time.

That is most certainly *NOT* my interpretation up until a few days ago.
There
are some inconsistencies between the regulations (FAR 61.51) and the
letter of the
FAA from 1977:
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html

I used to think that since there is a clear distinction between acting as
PIC
and logging PIC time in the FARs, that there was no way the acting PIC can
log PIC
time if a non-pilot was manipulating the controls.

Crap... I *thought* I understood this whole thing. If it weren't for the
letter, letting grandma or Fido fly means (according to the literal FARs)
that
*nobody* can log PIC.

You've got it right. The FAA's legal opinion contradicts 61.51e. But at
least the error is in our favor--that is, it removes a restriction rather
than imposing one.

--Gary

Safety pilot should log SIC, he is a required crewmember,
but is not sole manipulator or PIC.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"three-eight-hotel" wrote in
message
oups.com...
| You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or
not] is
| flying if you are a CFI
|
| What about a safety pilot?
|

I'd say he is SIC


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Blanche" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not]
is
| flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
| authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
| flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
| time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
| give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
| require an ATP for the pilot.
|
| Given the situation:
| IFR student under the hood on a VFR day,
| any other rated pilot as safety pilot,
| I thought the safety pilot could log PIC...?
|
| Another OWT?
|

Why bring up the subject of logging PIC? The question was about acting
PIC. They are two separate topics.


Jim Macklin wrote:
You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
require an ATP for the pilot.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm





"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
| In a previous article, "Doug"
said:
| One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
friend fly his
| plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the
plane has dual
|
| When you're a legally certificated and medicalled pilot,
and you let your
| friends or family members take the controls, they are just
a meat-based
| autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different than
if you'd turned
| on George.
|
| --
| Paul Tomblin
http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
| "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with
diarrhea -- massive,
| difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind-
| boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
t." - spaf (1992)

Because the non-CFI letting his buddy fly might log the time
and that error might come back and bite him.

Just trying to be thorough.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Why bring up the subject of logging PIC? The question was
about acting
| PIC. They are two separate topics.
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or
not] is
| flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
| authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or
121
| flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
| time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
| give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
| require an ATP for the pilot.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| --
| The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
| But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
| some support
| http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
|
|
|
|
|
| "Paul Tomblin" wrote in
message
| ...
| | In a previous article, "Doug"
| said:
| | One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
| friend fly his
| | plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and
the
| plane has dual
| |
| | When you're a legally certificated and medicalled
pilot,
| and you let your
| | friends or family members take the controls, they are
just
| a meat-based
| | autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different
than
| if you'd turned
| | on George.
| |
| | --
| | Paul Tomblin
| http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
| | "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with
| diarrhea -- massive,
| | difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining,
and a
| source of mind-
| | boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
| t." - spaf (1992)
|

Safety pilot should log SIC, he is a required crewmember,
but is not sole manipulator or PIC.

Safety pilot could be PIC if they so agree beforehand.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

True, but it should be agreed to. A rental aircraft renter
or the owner would be default PIC in the eyes of an outsider
looking at the flight.

But, a non pilot cannot be a safety pilot, even if they can
look outside for obstructions and other airplanes.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Jose" wrote in message
t...
| Safety pilot should log SIC, he is a required crewmember,
| but is not sole manipulator or PIC.
|
| Safety pilot could be PIC if they so agree beforehand.
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose
whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The FAA has said the safety pilot can log PIC if he is also serving as
PIC, your opinion not withstanding.

-Robet

Yes, but with only private or commercial pilots on the
airplane [not CFI] only one can be PIC, although if the CP
PIC /safety pilot was logging PIC and the other CP/PP under
the hood was logging sole manipulator PIC, a legal option.
But these conditions should be decided before flight.

I think that the logging of SIC for a person who is clearly
acting as a safety pilot/SIC is a more justifiable option.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
| The FAA has said the safety pilot can log PIC if he is
also serving as
| PIC, your opinion not withstanding.
|
| -Robet
|

That's clearly not true. Two private pilots can log PIC at the same
time. Pilot #1 is sole manipulator of the controls (61.51(e)(i). Pilot
#2 is a required crew member serving as PIC 61.51(e)(iii).

Reference. FAA 61 FAQ...
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.113(a) and § 61.51(e)(iii); Yes, the Private Pilot
who is serving as a safety pilot and is acting as the PIC may log the
time as PIC flight time. And yes, that Private Pilot may use that PIC
flight time for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating under
Part 61. And no, that Private Pilot is not ". . . . carrying
passengers or property for compensation or hire;" nor is that Private
Pilot acting as a pilot in command ". . . for compensation or hire, .
.. . ." when he serves as a safety pilot. In accordance with
§91.109(b)(1), it permits a person who holds a Private Pilot
Certificate with a category and class rating appropriate to the
aircraft being flown to serve as a safety pilot.

And this answer has been reviewed by the FAA's Washington HQ Chief
Counsel Office (AGC-240), and they have agreed with this answer.
{Q&A-273}