Budget Retracts - Anyone own a Sierra or Comanche 180?

wrote:

: That's a PA-28-180 vs. a PA-28-180R. Cruise of 119 kts vs. 141 kts. That's
: 18% improvement in speed. Others are similar around 15%. So, multiply your fuel

Having flown many hours in both, the Arrow numbers are a bit high. Figure
135 kts for the Arrow, and you get ~15% like the others. The 200 HP Arrow
is quite a bit faster.
--
Aaron C.

On 8-Feb-2006, John Theune wrote:

I'd really like to see some number to support your conclusion. By my
estimates 100 hrs * 11 gals per hour = 1100 gal per year. RG decreases
fuel need by 5% or 55 gal * $3.50 = 192.50 per year in fuel savings.
From the numbers throw about by my aircraft owning buddies the delta in
ownership costs for a retract are much more then that.

Assumptions in above: Fuel burn is about the same for 180HP engines in
Comanche 180 and 172s with 180HP engine. Increased speed reduces need
for fuel by 5% by higher speed in cruise, climb fuel burn is the same.
Big YMMV is added


I said "RG compared to a FG WITH SIMILAR PERFORMANCE..." For comparison to
an Arrow or Sierra than burns about 10.5 GPH at 75%, that would be something
like a Skylane or Dakota that burns about 3 GPH more. For 100 hrs, that's
300 gallons, or well over $1000 at today's fuel prices.
Additional maintenance costs for an RG will probably run about $300/yr.
(This is based upon my experience and what my A&P told me.) Insurance
difference could be wildly variable depending upon pilot experience and IR
status, In my case, the extra premium for RG runs about $500/yr.
In other words, the cost of folding the gear is more than offset by the cost
of the fuel needed to drag it through the air.

-Elliott Drucker

wrote:
: status, In my case, the extra premium for RG runs about $500/yr.
: In other words, the cost of folding the gear is more than offset by the cost
: of the fuel needed to drag it through the air.

Ahh... but those are the *HIDDEN* costs. Fixed ones like insurance and extra
labor on the annual. The *direct* operating costs are lower. That's all I ever look
at when deciding if I'm going to go somewhere. The fixed costs all get cheaper the
more you fly.

Everyone has their own rationalization of why owning is better.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

When It really gets down to it, money isn't an issue. $100-200 here and
there isn't a big deal.
Having wheels that go up and down and the speed that goes with it, is.

If your worried about dollars and worried the cents that goes along with
it, you don't need an airplane let alone a retract.

Owning an airplane is a statement and a way of life for alot of people.

If you think that a retract is in your future, then buy one.
Don't bitch about it will cost you an extra $500 a year.

If you want to stay still legged, thats great, too. There is absolutly
nothing wrong with that.


wrote:
wrote:
: status, In my case, the extra premium for RG runs about $500/yr.
: In other words, the cost of folding the gear is more than offset by the cost
: of the fuel needed to drag it through the air.

Ahh... but those are the *HIDDEN* costs. Fixed ones like insurance and extra
labor on the annual. The *direct* operating costs are lower. That's all I ever look
at when deciding if I'm going to go somewhere. The fixed costs all get cheaper the
more you fly.

Everyone has their own rationalization of why owning is better.

-Cory

I have been flying my '76 Sierra (B model) for about 16 years. Some
comments:
1. The porpoise phenomenon - true, it will. Fly it properly with attention
to airspeed and with the knowledge that it can run out of aileron authorith
and it will grease on like any other aircraft
2. Not a 'finger flyer'. It flies heavy. I like the feel, but it takes a
hand onthe yoke, not a couple of fingers.
3. Lots of doors. One on either side plus a large luggage door.
4. Annuals have averaged about $2200/year for the past 15 years
5. Insurance - about $1500 currently for two authorized pilots with similar
ratings and time
6. Speed - not real fast. Zero wind is probably about 115kts. But if I am
just out to make holes inthe sky I can crank it back to 17 inches of MP and
2000 rpm and burn 4gph at 90kts.
7. Built like a truck. If you want a sports car, this is not your plane
8. Great instrument platform - stable, fairly high wing loading
"RH" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm a PVT, IFR pilot, but fairly low time at 350 hours, mostly in
various fixed gear PA28's.

I'm interested in buying an entry level retractable. I'd like to use
it to get my commercial certificate, and maybe go on to my CFI/CFII.
But the primary mission would be to haul my wife, 1 year old son and
our two small dogs on 200-400 NM x-c's up and down the east coast to
visit family.

I've noticed that the older Comanche 180's and Beech Sierra seem to be
a good buy. There are several on TAP and ASO right now with mid time
engines, modern updated panels and GPS in the $45-$55K range. A
comparable Arrow, C172RG, 177RG or Commander 112 would be at least $65K
and up. Frankly it looks like the owners of these Comanche's &
Sierra's have much more invested in their aircraft than they are worth.

Any owners/operators care to share your experiences with these two
aircraft?
Are Beech parts really *that* much more expensive than Piper parts?
Is it a nightmare trying to maintain an older retractable? I would
hope not to have to sell either one anytime soon. So fast forward 10
years to 2016 --- what you you rather be maintaining, a 37 year old
Beech Sierra or a 57 year old Piper Comanche?

Thanks for sharing!

Rich

pgbnh wrote:

6. Speed - not real fast. Zero wind is probably about 115kts.


$1500 for insurance, $2200 for annuals and you only get to go 115 kts?
Kee-ryste all mighty.

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:20:54 -0500, pgbnh wrote:

2. Not a 'finger flyer'. It flies heavy. I like the feel, but it takes a
hand onthe yoke, not a couple of fingers.

Surprised to hear this on the Sierra! My Sundowner, when trimmed is pretty
much hands off.

3. Lots of doors. One on either side plus a large luggage door.

Yep, always surprises a lineman when I exit out the left side :-).

4. Annuals have averaged about $2200/year for the past 15 years

Mine has been about $1500, so guess flexible gears add to this?

5. Insurance - about $1500 currently for two authorized pilots with similar
ratings and time

Mine is $800 with me having $350 hours at my last renewal. I am now over
$540 so I hope to see a drop.

6. Speed - not real fast. Zero wind is probably about 115kts. But if I am
just out to make holes inthe sky I can crank it back to 17 inches of MP and
2000 rpm and burn 4gph at 90kts.

Not quite sure I understand you only getting 5 knots more then my
Sundowner?

7. Built like a truck. If you want a sports car, this is not your plane
8. Great instrument platform - stable, fairly high wing loading

Yes, agree, trailing link gear, and stable as a table when trimmed right.

Allen

B A R R Y wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:11:38 -0700, Newps wrote:



pgbnh wrote:


6. Speed - not real fast. Zero wind is probably about 115kts.


$1500 for insurance, $2200 for annuals and you only get to go 115 kts?
Kee-ryste all mighty.




But it's comfy!

So's a 182 or a Cherokee 235, both of which handily crush your Sierra.
My insurance was always right at $1000 and the annuals were also $1000
on average for my 182 that I recently sold. You're paying quite a
premium to fly that slow and to be required to pay that much attention
to airspeed on final.



How fast is your typical caddy?

Are you serious? Have you seen a Caddy lately? They're as fast as
anything out there.

On 9-Feb-2006, "pgbnh" wrote:

Speed - not real fast. Zero wind is probably about 115kts.


Is that at 75%? If so, it's about 25 kts slower than an Arrow which uses
essentially the same engine (Lyc IO-360). Slower than an Archer with 20
fewer horses and fixed gear. That's pretty ugly!

Are you sure you're remembering to raise the gear?

--
-Elliott Drucker

On 02/09/06 16:36, B A R R Y wrote:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:11:38 -0700, Newps wrote:



pgbnh wrote:

6. Speed - not real fast. Zero wind is probably about 115kts.


$1500 for insurance, $2200 for annuals and you only get to go 115 kts?
Kee-ryste all mighty.



But it's comfy!

How fast is your typical caddy?

Well, I drive an Eldorado ETC, 300HP, high-performance suspension,
very comfy, etc. When I step on it, it will put you in the back seat ;-)

.... but you did say 'typical' ;-)

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA