Hendrick Motorsports Report

In article NTBQf.116896$QW2.34594@dukeread08,
says...


The GPS, should have shown them a clear view of the general
position of their airplane to the airport.

Since I am not a government official, I am not restricted
from making educated statements about the obvious.


Nor do I believe you should be restricted from giving your best guess on
it. However, the report states they were using the GPS, and strongly
hints they may have misinterpreted it, or not fully understood how to fly
it.

If true, it could be a case of pilots fully conversant with the "legacy"
IFR system, bcoming over-reliant on the GPS, because it's "easier" when
in fact they haven't even fully mastered its use. I believe it's more
constructive to speculate on how trained, qualified people get into
situations like this, than to state they crashed because they were
"stupid".

GF

I'm not sure I said they were stupid, I think I said they
did a stupid thing. The GPS was not IFR approved if I
remember what the report said. The approach is a LOC w DME
and LOM.

It is really a shame we are left with guessing about what,
how and why the crew made so many mistakes.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Greg Farris" wrote in message
...
| In article NTBQf.116896$QW2.34594@dukeread08,
| says...
|
|
| The GPS, should have shown them a clear view of the
general
| position of their airplane to the airport.
|
| Since I am not a government official, I am not restricted
| from making educated statements about the obvious.
|
|
| Nor do I believe you should be restricted from giving your
best guess on
| it. However, the report states they were using the GPS,
and strongly
| hints they may have misinterpreted it, or not fully
understood how to fly
| it.
|
| If true, it could be a case of pilots fully conversant
with the "legacy"
| IFR system, bcoming over-reliant on the GPS, because it's
"easier" when
| in fact they haven't even fully mastered its use. I
believe it's more
| constructive to speculate on how trained, qualified people
get into
| situations like this, than to state they crashed because
they were
| "stupid".
|
| GF
|

On 3/11/06 12:05 PM, in article , "Greg
Farris" wrote:

In article NTBQf.116896$QW2.34594@dukeread08,
says...


The GPS, should have shown them a clear view of the general
position of their airplane to the airport.

Since I am not a government official, I am not restricted
from making educated statements about the obvious.


Nor do I believe you should be restricted from giving your best guess on
it. However, the report states they were using the GPS, and strongly
hints they may have misinterpreted it, or not fully understood how to fly
it.

If true, it could be a case of pilots fully conversant with the "legacy"
IFR system, bcoming over-reliant on the GPS, because it's "easier" when
in fact they haven't even fully mastered its use. I believe it's more
constructive to speculate on how trained, qualified people get into
situations like this, than to state they crashed because they were
"stupid".

GF

What I find odd is that the missed approach calls for an immediate climbing
right turn, and there appears to be no turn at all after they went missed.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Jim Macklin wrote:

The GPS was not IFR approved if I remember what the report said.

Also, the accident aircraft's GPS database had expired by more than a year,
FWIW.


--
Peter

The entire approach was flown improperly. And the missed
approached was out of the protected area and as you said,
does require an immediate climbing turn.


"Wizard of Draws"
wrote in message
news:C0389B43.6639B%jeffbREMOVE@REMOVEwizardofdraw s.com...
| On 3/11/06 12:05 PM, in article
, "Greg
| Farris" wrote:
|
| In article NTBQf.116896$QW2.34594@dukeread08,
| says...
|
|
| The GPS, should have shown them a clear view of the
general
| position of their airplane to the airport.
|
| Since I am not a government official, I am not
restricted
| from making educated statements about the obvious.
|
|
| Nor do I believe you should be restricted from giving
your best guess on
| it. However, the report states they were using the GPS,
and strongly
| hints they may have misinterpreted it, or not fully
understood how to fly
| it.
|
| If true, it could be a case of pilots fully conversant
with the "legacy"
| IFR system, bcoming over-reliant on the GPS, because
it's "easier" when
| in fact they haven't even fully mastered its use. I
believe it's more
| constructive to speculate on how trained, qualified
people get into
| situations like this, than to state they crashed because
they were
| "stupid".
|
| GF
|
| What I find odd is that the missed approach calls for an
immediate climbing
| right turn, and there appears to be no turn at all after
they went missed.
| --
| Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
|
| Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
| http://www.wizardofdraws.com
|
| More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
| http://www.cartoonclipart.com
|

I think is why it wasn't an approved system.


"Peter R." wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| The GPS was not IFR approved if I remember what the
report said.
|
| Also, the accident aircraft's GPS database had expired by
more than a year,
| FWIW.
|
|
| --
| Peter

On 3/11/06 7:13 PM, in article SPJQf.116929$QW2.4426@dukeread08, "Jim
Macklin" wrote:

The entire approach was flown improperly. And the missed
approached was out of the protected area and as you said,
does require an immediate climbing turn.


I wonder if they had current, or correct charts, or even looked at it from
the way the approach was flown.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Or even had the wrong airport chart. Something was
certainly wrong, we know what happened from the NTSB report,
but why has not been answered.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Wizard of Draws"
wrote in message
news:C038EDAE.66524%jeffbREMOVE@REMOVEwizardofdraw s.com...
| On 3/11/06 7:13 PM, in article
SPJQf.116929$QW2.4426@dukeread08, "Jim
| Macklin" wrote:
|
| The entire approach was flown improperly. And the
missed
| approached was out of the protected area and as you
said,
| does require an immediate climbing turn.
|
|
| I wonder if they had current, or correct charts, or even
looked at it from
| the way the approach was flown.
| --
| Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
|
| Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
| http://www.wizardofdraws.com
|
| More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
| http://www.cartoonclipart.com
|

In article SPJQf.116929$QW2.4426@dukeread08,
says...


The entire approach was flown improperly. And the missed
approached was out of the protected area and as you said,
does require an immediate climbing turn.


Everything in the report suggests they did not realize they were past the
airport, or the MAP. Perhaps they knew they had to turn right, but they
probably had no idea they were out of the protected area, and thus didn't
see the urgency of it.

We all know about "expect to land" syndrome, and the unpreparedness for
the missed that results from it. All the more in that the preceding crew
landed easily. It seems they were, as others here suggest, thrown a curve
by the unexpected early clearance, then misread the GPS, which had
already cycled to the last programmed point.

What do you bet if they didn't have the GPS, they would have used the
DME, and it would have been second nature to them to check what it was
tuned to. They may not have lost situational awareness and bumbled along
as they did, seemingly waiting for something to happen in their favor. We
can guess they may have been discussing the situation, trying to figure
out where they were - but then we don't really know. . .

GF

The failure to make a climbing right turn missed approach
was just the last link in a long chain of errors.

I would describe the crew as "head up and locked" because
anytime you have any question about your position on an
approach, a climb is in order and if the crew had
cross-checked any of the readouts that were in front of
them, they would have [should have] known they were about to
kill their passengers.

The King Air had RMI, HSI, DME, a GPS all with dual displays
and a two person crew... why they failed to perform is
subject to interpretation. They were in a hurry? They were
careless? They had equipment problems that were not
reported? Food poisoning?


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.




"Greg Farris" wrote in message
...
| In article SPJQf.116929$QW2.4426@dukeread08,
| says...
|
|
| The entire approach was flown improperly. And the missed
| approached was out of the protected area and as you said,
| does require an immediate climbing turn.
|
|
| Everything in the report suggests they did not realize
they were past the
| airport, or the MAP. Perhaps they knew they had to turn
right, but they
| probably had no idea they were out of the protected area,
and thus didn't
| see the urgency of it.
|
| We all know about "expect to land" syndrome, and the
unpreparedness for
| the missed that results from it. All the more in that the
preceding crew
| landed easily. It seems they were, as others here suggest,
thrown a curve
| by the unexpected early clearance, then misread the GPS,
which had
| already cycled to the last programmed point.
|
| What do you bet if they didn't have the GPS, they would
have used the
| DME, and it would have been second nature to them to check
what it was
| tuned to. They may not have lost situational awareness and
bumbled along
| as they did, seemingly waiting for something to happen in
their favor. We
| can guess they may have been discussing the situation,
trying to figure
| out where they were - but then we don't really know. . .
|
| GF
|