Class C Airspace Discussion

We have plenty of VFR aircraft talking to Salt Lake Center passing thru
my airspace. Sometimes we take a point out and let ZLC work them,
sometimes we will work them. The pilot is under no obligation to
contact me directly if he is talking to ZLC.



Robert M. Gary wrote:
In some sense the letter seems to be a bit BS. How is the pilot to know
what LOA are in place between the facilities? In some very busy areas
(So Cal) its very common for approach to not hand you off to another
tower (not theirs) until they put you almost on downwind. It will be
interesting to hear from the controllers on the list. In non-busy
airspace it would be easy to immagine being able to get enough radio
time to query.

-Robert

"skym" wrote in message
oups.com...

Interesting query. At first I wondered how this situation ever arises,
then I remembered my VFR flight into Troutdale (TTD) which is in a
class D airspace that partially underlies and actually seems to invade
the overlying Class C of Portland (PDX).


No invasion. There is a hierarchy of airspace, lower classes of airspace
give way to higher classes.


PART 71-DESIGNATION OF CLASS A, B, C, D, AND E AIRSPACE AREAS; AIR TRAFFIC
SERVICE ROUTES; AND REPORTING POINTS

§ 71.9 Overlapping airspace designations.

(a) When overlapping airspace designations apply to the same airspace, the
operating rules associated with the more restrictive airspace designation
apply.

(b) For the purpose of this section-

(1) Class A airspace is more restrictive than Class B, Class C, Class D,
Class E, or Class G airspace;

(2) Class B airspace is more restrictive than Class C, Class D, Class E,
or Class G airspace;

(3) Class C airspace is more restrictive than Class D, Class E, or Class G
airspace;

(4) Class D airspace is more restrictive than Class E or Class G airspace;
and

(5) Class E is more restrictive than Class G airspace.



I was on flight following
from the southwest and couldn't find the TTD airport, so PDX approach
was kindly giving me help... "it's about 2 miles at 12 o'clock."
(Don't laugh; they're not always easy to find.) When he told me to
contact TTD tower, I got a rather exasperated reply on my callin that I
should have called them earlier. I meekly replied that I was with PDX
approach until then, and he said "Oh well, that was ok."
So, I guess I technically busted the Class D by not contacting them
while I was still talking to approach (within Class C) but was already
within 5 miles of the Class D airport. Frankly, since I was on radar
with approach control I felt it was safer for everyone to stay with
them until told to contact the local tower at TTD.


You can't bust Class D airspace while you're in Class C airspace. If you
were two miles southwest of TTD between 1700 and 4000 MSL you were in Class
C airspace. If you were below 1700 you were in Class D airspace.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

The confusion may come from that fact that if you are receiving flight
following (or IFR) from center or some other facility and you fly
through the class C you are ok, it is there responsibility to
coordinate with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.


True in some cases, such as when part-time facilities are opening for the
day. But that's pretty much it. If you're about to enter Class C airspace
you shouldn't be talking to any facility other than the one responsible for
the Class C airspace.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

No, the approach controller was responsible for either coordinating
your transition through the class D or handing you off. In truth, I
believe there are areas of the class D that approach has agreements to
send arrivals.


Radar facilities are required to coordinate the transition of thruflights,
but not of VFR arrivals.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..

But its being their responsibility doesn't mean that it isn't still the
pilot's responsibility too (in the case of VFR flight following). In fact,
the AIM (3-2-1d) says "It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure
that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to
entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. *The pilot retains this
responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories*." (emphasis added).

So even when I'm receiving flight following, I assume I need to talk to
the tower or approach controller of the facility whose airspace I'm about
to transit, except if the chart notes otherwise (for example, in the case
of several satellites whose Class D airspace is underneath Boston's Class
B, the chart says to contact Boston Approach to transit the Class D above
a certain altitude). In practice, though, I can't recall any time that the
controller giving me radar advisories wasn't already the one I needed to
be in contact with.


A radar controller is required to coordinate the transition of Class D
airspace with the control tower when providing radar traffic advisories.
You are not expected to contact the tower yourself.


FAA Order 7110.65R Air traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.

"Peter R." wrote in message
...

I have read of pilots experiencing this at Caldwell, New Jersey, a class D
airport here in the busy northeast US. IMO, a crazy and potentially
dangerous way (added frequency congestion, distracted controller, 180
degree turn in busy airspace) to demonstrate a point.


Crazy and potentially dangerous because of the 180 degree turn or because
you arrived unexpected and unannounced in busy airspace? What else would
you expect the tower controller to do at that point?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

In some sense the letter seems to be a bit BS. How is the pilot to know
what LOA are in place between the facilities?


Why would the pilot need to know?



In some very busy areas
(So Cal) its very common for approach to not hand you off to another
tower (not theirs) until they put you almost on downwind. It will be
interesting to hear from the controllers on the list. In non-busy
airspace it would be easy to immagine being able to get enough radio
time to query.


First of all a "handoff" is strictly a radar function. It is the action
taken to transfer the radar identification of an aircraft from one
controller to another if the aircraft will enter the receiving controller's
airspace and radio communications with the aircraft will be transferred. It
is NOT the transfer of radio communications.

If you're arriving VFR and you're almost on downwind within Class D airspace
and still on Center/approach frequency it's because the radar controller
forgot about you or was too busy with other duties to tell you to contact
the tower. Don't get into that position. Before entering Class D airspace
tell the radar controller bye-bye and contact the tower. If frequency
congestion does not permit the bye-bye then just contact the tower.

In article . net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

The confusion may come from that fact that if you are receiving flight
following (or IFR) from center or some other facility and you fly
through the class C you are ok, it is there responsibility to
coordinate with the class C controllers for you or to hand you off.


True in some cases, such as when part-time facilities are opening for the
day. But that's pretty much it. If you're about to enter Class C airspace
you shouldn't be talking to any facility other than the one responsible for
the Class C airspace.

What happens if you're within the lateral and vertical boundaries of a
part-time Class C when the tower opens in the morning?

Crazy and potentially dangerous because of the 180 degree turn or because
you arrived unexpected and unannounced in busy airspace? What else would
you expect the tower controller to do at that point?

Personally, (as you know) I expected the RFD approach controller to be
on the same sheet of music as the JVL tower controller. They are 25.6
miles apart, and work together hand-in-glove MOST of the time.

Just not that day...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...

Personally, (as you know) I expected the RFD approach controller to be
on the same sheet of music as the JVL tower controller. They are 25.6
miles apart, and work together hand-in-glove MOST of the time.

Just not that day...


What same sheet of music did you expect them to be on? You were operating
VFR in Class E and D airspace. There was no requirement for you to be in
contact with RFD approach at any time, there is a requirement for you to
contact JVL tower prior to entering Class D airspace, yet you blame RFD
approach for dumping Mary into the Class D airspace. Is RFD approach
directly responsible for the operation of the airplane when Mary is flying?