Continuous Closed Traffic Approved

I don't think the Sport Pilot thing will help GA to any significant degree.
LSAs are nothing but toys. I flew my Sundowner to work today, and saved a
little time compared to driving. I couldn't have done that with an LSA.

We don't use the practical aspects of our planes nearly as much as we could,
but GA can be useful and reasonable transportation. LSA/SP might be as much
fun as it looks, but it has very little practicality.

Personally, I am looking for tools, not toys. It's nice to have things the
family can do together. Now if those tools happen to be lots of fun, so
much the better!


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
It's all getting scary.

You know, I had hoped that the Sport Pilot rage would help re-light a fire
in GA for the general public. But in my last trip to OSH, I was looking
at all the "Sport Pilot ready" planes (this was pre-release of the SP
rating/cat). Hoping to see where an average person could buy a plane for
the price of a really nice bass boat, I was definitely disappointed.

"LWG" wrote in message
...
I don't think the Sport Pilot thing will help GA to any significant degree.
LSAs are nothing but toys. I flew my Sundowner to work today, and saved a
little time compared to driving. I couldn't have done that with an LSA.

Okay, I'll bite. Why couldn't you have?

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Jeff" wrote)

good stuff snipped...

1978 was the beginning of the end for bustling activity at many local
airports, IMHO. After that, interest rates soared, gas prices doubled,
"The Recession" was very real and evil and long, wages did not keep pace
with inflation, housing costs rose faster than inflation, etc.


In 1978 we had an investment tax credit of 10%. Buy an $80,000 airplane and
put it to work, get an $8,000 tax credit.

In 1978 we had GI bill paying 90% of flight training, with lots of GI's.
Flight schools abounded. Airplanes were available through "leaseback"(see
above). Many pilots went through the program, myself included.


Then, in the early 80's, the lawsuits started adding real [consumer
visible] dollars to the cost of everything aviation related.


In the late '70's we started seeing really large settlements against
manufacturers for crashes in which they played no part. The criteria for
selecting targets of lawsuits became the depth of the pockets, not any
realistic liability(ref Thurman Munson).

Al

I should have said that an LSP/SP would not have sufficed, at least without
additional endorsements. I departed from Class D airspace, and was
operating in furtherance of a business (I think).

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"LWG" wrote in message
...
I don't think the Sport Pilot thing will help GA to any significant
degree. LSAs are nothing but toys. I flew my Sundowner to work today, and
saved a little time compared to driving. I couldn't have done that with
an LSA.

Okay, I'll bite. Why couldn't you have?

"LWG" wrote in message
. ..
I should have said that an LSP/SP would not have sufficed, at least without
additional endorsements. I departed from Class D airspace, and was
operating in furtherance of a business (I think).

I still don't see any conflicts.

You can fly from class D. You can travel for business, if the travel is
coincidental to the business.
--
Jim in NC

"LWG" wrote in message
. ..
I should have said that an LSP/SP would not have sufficed, at least without
additional endorsements. I departed from Class D airspace, and was
operating in furtherance of a business (I think).

As Jim pointed out, there's nothing about the type of operation that
conflicts with the Sport Pilot certificate.

More to the point, however, you wrote "I couldn't have done that with an
LSA". The limitations on the Sport Pilot certificate are on the pilot, not
the airplane. An "LSA" flown by a pilot with a Private Pilot certificate
(for example) can do pretty much anything they would normally be able to do
(a typical exception might be flying IFR, since not all of the "sport"
airplanes are certificated for IFR flight).

The Sport Pilot certificate certainly should expand the potential market for
these light airplanes, but the market has always existed and the airplanes
are quite usable for much of the kind of flying most pilots at that end of
the market are looking to do.

Don't confuse the pilot certification with the airplane certification. They
are two separate things.

Pete

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
"LWG" wrote:

I don't think the Sport Pilot thing will help GA to any significant degree.
LSAs are nothing but toys. I flew my Sundowner to work today, and saved a
little time compared to driving. I couldn't have done that with an LSA.

The max level cruise speed permitted for an LSA is 120
knots. What does your Sundowner cruise at? A quick check
of the web shows a 75% cruise speed for the Sundowner at 115
knots. I don't see much limitation there.

As a Sundowner owner, I don't plan on getting _anywhere_ fast. G

In article ,
LWG wrote:
I should have said that an LSP/SP would not have sufficed, at least without
additional endorsements. I departed from Class D airspace, and was
operating in furtherance of a business (I think).

You (as a private pilot) could have flown a LSA out of class D airspace
without any additional training, endorsements, or whatever. Not all
LSA's come with radios and transponders (the ones I've seen in the
"cheaper" end do not), but you could have departed NORDO if you were
really trying to economize and didn't want to spring for a handheld
radio.

I don't understand your objection to LSAs. If they are successful,
they will get more people flying ... that means airports get more
utilization, more money gets pumped into the aviation industry, there's
a general overall awareness of flying, and that's only good things for
the industry as a whole. They may not be right for your mission, and
that's okay ... they're not designed for everyone. But the more people
flying, the better the industry is ... the more people that use an
airport, for example, the harder it is to close.

If your issue is with the Sport Pilot rating, well, I guess I see two
purposes to the rating. One is to keep old farts who are in danger of
losing their medicals in the air; these old farts are still allowed to
fly into class D airspace, they just can't flying big planes, or at
night. Seems reasonable. The other is to get new pilots into the air
quicker. The limitations of the rating seem reasonable given the
amount of training you get. I think the hope is that new Sport Pilots
will get bitten by the flying bug, and go on to get the necessary training
(which means that they're spending more money on aviation, which is
always a good thing).

--Ken

I know, that's why I said LSA/SP, meaning the combination of an SP in an
LSA.

I have nothing against the LSA or the SP, I just don't think they have
enough practicality to catch on. I would really like to see more people
flying, I just don't think that this will affect the decline in GA. It
looks like we are the last of a generation. I remember my intense
preoccupation with flying when I was a teenager, and compare it to what I
see, even with my own kids. They couldn't care less about aviation, unless
it says Lear or Gulfstream, and that't not for the flying, it's just for the
bling.

Kids can't wander onto an airport, at least not my home base. I have to
drive through a manned security gate and present ID.

There is nothing I would like to see more than a resurgence in the interest
in GA. I don't see any new investment in anything related to general
aviation, except from government. Private airports are now housing
developments. Businesses depending upon GA are folding up. The only "new"
buildings or improvements I see in my area have been put up by state or
local government. That's better than nothing, but I'd rather see the engine
of private enterprise doing these things.


"Ken Hornstein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
LWG wrote:
I should have said that an LSP/SP would not have sufficed, at least
without
additional endorsements. I departed from Class D airspace, and was
operating in furtherance of a business (I think).

You (as a private pilot) could have flown a LSA out of class D airspace
without any additional training, endorsements, or whatever. Not all
LSA's come with radios and transponders (the ones I've seen in the
"cheaper" end do not), but you could have departed NORDO if you were
really trying to economize and didn't want to spring for a handheld
radio.

I don't understand your objection to LSAs. If they are successful,
they will get more people flying ... that means airports get more
utilization, more money gets pumped into the aviation industry, there's
a general overall awareness of flying, and that's only good things for
the industry as a whole. They may not be right for your mission, and
that's okay ... they're not designed for everyone. But the more people
flying, the better the industry is ... the more people that use an
airport, for example, the harder it is to close.

If your issue is with the Sport Pilot rating, well, I guess I see two
purposes to the rating. One is to keep old farts who are in danger of
losing their medicals in the air; these old farts are still allowed to
fly into class D airspace, they just can't flying big planes, or at
night. Seems reasonable. The other is to get new pilots into the air
quicker. The limitations of the rating seem reasonable given the
amount of training you get. I think the hope is that new Sport Pilots
will get bitten by the flying bug, and go on to get the necessary training
(which means that they're spending more money on aviation, which is
always a good thing).

--Ken

On 2006-05-12, LWG wrote:
looks like we are the last of a generation. I remember my intense
preoccupation with flying when I was a teenager, and compare it to what I
see, even with my own kids. They couldn't care less about aviation, unless
it says Lear or Gulfstream, and that't not for the flying, it's just for the
bling.

But that was true of any time - only a very tiny minority of the
population are obsessed enough about flying to actually do it. I can
give you teenaged counter-examples right now - but it's irrelevant:
flying has always been a minority pursuit and always will be a minority
pursuit. Flying is _not_ a natural habitat for a human being, and
therefore 99.5% of the human race is innately afraid of flying. Most of
the population ranges from mild discomfort and anxiety to full blown
terror at the idea of being even a few feet off the ground in a plane.

It's only a tiny percentage who actually find the experience enjoyable.
It's always been like that and always will be like that.

Kids can't wander onto an airport, at least not my home base. I have to
drive through a manned security gate and present ID.

For each airfield like that there are 100 you can just wander up to.

For the remainder of the human population who DO enjoy flying (and there
is enough to keep GA going) with the current costs and timescales it
takes to learn to fly, you are left with:

- those young enough that they don't yet have a family
- those old enough that the family have left home AND finished college

Out of the former, most don't have the money. So you are left with the
latter, most who face spousal pressure not to start flying in the first
place, or who find themselves disappointed at having to fly a ratty old
C152 that's almost as old as they are and costs a fortune.

Then you add to that the current cotton-wool total risk aversion of
society and you take away even more of the already tiny possible pool of
people who may learn to fly.

Some are doing something about it - the British Gliding Association are
running scholarships for youths. Our tiny soaring club (about a dozen
regular members) has two scholarship students currently in the club -
paid up to solo by the BGA. By the time they solo, they can't stop.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de