Memorial Day USA

Derek Copeland wrote:
Well this occured before I was born. But:

1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
etc.
But never carpet bombed your cities.



2) We were at total war with Germany, and the only
way we could attack them until 1944 was by bombing.

Two wrongs do not make right, the choice was always yours.

3) The towns we bombed contained factories making armaments
and V weapons to use against us.

Is that why Dresden was flattened just few month before the end of the
war? Not really, please check your history, inflicting maximum damage
to the cities was an expressly stated policy of the Bomber Command.



4) Night bombing techniques at the time were not accurate
enough to hit specific strategic targets. We found
out very early on in the war (as did the Germans and
later on the Yanks) that daylight bombing missions
were virtually suicidal against a well defended target.
The US Flying Fortresses and Liberators ended up carrying
so many defensive guns and gunners that they could
hardly carry any bombs. Even our little twin engined
Mosquitos could carry far more, so this is probably
why we killed more people.

As per above.

Do not get me wrong. I am not condeming the actions of the Bomber
Command. I was not there and I do not have all the facts, and even if I
did, in the end I would only be making a value judgment. I was simply
pointing the duplicity of your argument.


kind regards


Paul Bart



Derek Copeland

At 09:36 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:


Hmmm, let me see did you forget, or did you never know
your own
country's war history.

'About two thirds of the 500,000 to 600,000 (conservative
estimates are
300,000) casualties of the bombings of German cities
died during attacks
by Bomber Command. One of the most controversial aspects
of Bomber
Command during WWII was the area bombing of cities....

The government's chief scientific adviser, Professor
Frederick Lindemann
was very close to Winston Churchill, who gave him a
seat in the Cabinet.
In 1942, Lindemann presented a seminal paper to the
Cabinet advocating
the 'aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing'
in a strategic
bombing campaign............

While the idea that the area bombing by the RAF of
German cities,
particularly in the last few months of the war, represented
a
regrettable or excessive campaign is widely held, the
case that it rises
to the level of a war crime is less widely subscribed
to.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command


Well at least in this post you seem to speak for your
self only, unlike
your previous post where, once again, you not only
speak for your own
country, but all of Europe.


Kind regards

Paul Bart

I am a resident in the US, a Canadian citizen, and while I have been
here for the last 6 years I have learned some very important things
about the US and its people.

The politicians here are just a dumb and controversial here as anywhere
else in the world, never really seeming to perform what the public
wants, and always influenced
by personal agendas....just like everywhere else.

I can only hope that when their day of of reckoning comes, they will
pay for their deeds.

My Great Grandfather was killed by the British, and my Grandfather was
killed by the British, my father was injured by the Americans but they
took care of him as a prisoner in Texas......my father fought because
he was to protect his family, not because he supported Hitler's quest
for power. Troops dont necessarily agree on the politicians point of
view.

The company where I work, had adopted a platoon of Marines in Iraq and
sent them mail, supplies, words of encouragement, treats etc.

After their tour of duty was over they returned back to the US and
visited us here at work with their equipment, Hummers, Rifles,
Artillery etc and demonstrated for us how it all works.

I was immediately floored by their age.....they are so young, more like
the kids you see at the mall, or delivering the newspaper.

I was also impressed by their formal forthright attitudes.....their
parents can be very proud, as I've never seen a finer group of
kids.....very knowledgable and respectfull.

I was moved by what I saw, and could not imagine them laying down their
lives at the whim of our government, for the greater good. At that
moment or realization I understood what patriotism is all about.

So I celebrate memorial day out of respect for these fine boys and all
the others before them, because you have to support the soldiers, even
if not the politicians, because the soldiers are our children,
brothers, sisters, neices and nephews, fathers and grand
fathers.....they are our family....on every side of the globe, and they
have choosen to serve their family and country regardless of whether
they agree or not about the politics.

How can you not support your own troops or in my case adopted troops?

Every country has their own day of celebration, and I suggest everyone
support them as you would your own family. Thats what memorial day is
about.....saying thanks!

How can we argue about this?

Ray Buhr

PB wrote:
Derek Copeland wrote:
Well this occured before I was born. But:

1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
etc.
But never carpet bombed your cities.

snip
Is that why Dresden was flattened just few month before the end of the
war? Not really, please check your history, inflicting maximum damage
to the cities was an expressly stated policy of the Bomber Command.

As far as I know it was payback for Coventry, which was sacrificed,
undefended by fighter command, to protect the secret possession of the
Enigma Machine by the Brits via the Poles. Churchill knew the raid on
Coventry was coming, but only via the code-breaking and no secondary
intelligence. One of the harder calls in the war and an appeasement to
some.

Frank Whiteley

jb92563 wrote:
I am a resident in the US, a Canadian citizen, and while I have been
here for the last 6 years I have learned some very important things
about the US and its people.

The politicians here are just a dumb and controversial here as anywhere
else in the world, never really seeming to perform what the public
wants, and always influenced
by personal agendas....just like everywhere else.

[....]

...my father fought because
he was to protect his family, not because he supported Hitler's quest
for power. Troops dont necessarily agree on the politicians point of
view.

[....]

So I celebrate memorial day out of respect for these fine boys and all
the others before them, because you have to support the soldiers, even
if not the politicians, because the soldiers are our children,
brothers, sisters, neices and nephews, fathers and grand
fathers.....they are our family....on every side of the globe, and they
have choosen to serve their family and country regardless of whether
they agree or not about the politics.

[....]

How can we argue about this?

Ray Buhr

----------


Thank you, Ray, for the injection of sanity and shared respect into a
series of pointless OT rants.

If travel broadens, there's clearly a crying need for more cross country
flying by some members of r.a.s.


Jack

Please get real Paul! We weren't fighting a tinpot
dictatorship like Iraq, but the most technologically
advanced and industrialised country in Europe, led
by fanatical Nazis.

Coventry was pretty comprehensively destroyed and its
beautiful medieval Cathedral burned out and wrecked
by possibly the most successful German bombing raid
of the war, using radio navigation beams that we hadn't
yet learned how to disrupt (unless you go along with
Frank Whiteley's conspiracy theory). The ruins of the
old Cathedral are now preserved as a memorial to the
many people who were killed in that city. My father
happened to be posted there at the time and was slightly
injured when a delayed action landmine went off quite
close to where he working.

Of course the Germans initially selected towns like
Coventry, Derby and Southampton to bomb because of
their connections with our aircraft industry. Later
on in the war they carried out 'revenge' attacks on
all sorts of unlikely towns and cities that were no
more and probably less industrial than Dresden!

Having narrowly fought off an attempted invasion by
the Germans in 1940, were we supposed to sit back and
let them develop their weapons of mass destruction
in peace and quiet so they could succeed the next time?
At least bombing their towns slowed them down and disrupted
production. And if bombing their centres of production
was so wrong, why did the USAAF join in so enthusiastically
from 1942 onwards?

Derek Copeland


At 12:42 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:
Derek Copeland wrote:
Well this occured before I was born. But:

1) The Germans bombed our cities first - London, Coventry,
Birmingham, Southampton, Portsmouth, Liverpool, etc,
etc.
But never carpet bombed your cities.



2) We were at total war with Germany, and the only
way we could attack them until 1944 was by bombing.

Two wrongs do not make right, the choice was always
yours.

3) The towns we bombed contained factories making
armaments
and V weapons to use against us.

Is that why Dresden was flattened just few month before
the end of the
war? Not really, please check your history, inflicting
maximum damage
to the cities was an expressly stated policy of the
Bomber Command.



4) Night bombing techniques at the time were not accurate
enough to hit specific strategic targets. We found
out very early on in the war (as did the Germans and
later on the Yanks) that daylight bombing missions
were virtually suicidal against a well defended target.
The US Flying Fortresses and Liberators ended up carrying
so many defensive guns and gunners that they could
hardly carry any bombs. Even our little twin engined
Mosquitos could carry far more, so this is probably
why we killed more people.

As per above.

Do not get me wrong. I am not condeming the actions
of the Bomber
Command. I was not there and I do not have all the
facts, and even if I
did, in the end I would only be making a value judgment.
I was simply
pointing the duplicity of your argument.


kind regards


Paul Bart



Derek Copeland

At 09:36 31 May 2006, Pb wrote:


Hmmm, let me see did you forget, or did you never know
your own
country's war history.

'About two thirds of the 500,000 to 600,000 (conservative
estimates are
300,000) casualties of the bombings of German cities
died during attacks
by Bomber Command. One of the most controversial aspects
of Bomber
Command during WWII was the area bombing of cities....

The government's chief scientific adviser, Professor
Frederick Lindemann
was very close to Winston Churchill, who gave him a
seat in the Cabinet.
In 1942, Lindemann presented a seminal paper to the
Cabinet advocating
the 'aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing'
in a strategic
bombing campaign............

While the idea that the area bombing by the RAF of
German cities,
particularly in the last few months of the war, represented
a
regrettable or excessive campaign is widely held, the
case that it rises
to the level of a war crime is less widely subscribed
to.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command


Well at least in this post you seem to speak for your
self only, unlike
your previous post where, once again, you not only
speak for your own
country, but all of Europe.


Kind regards

Paul Bart

Say, Derek, is it true that those V1's were actually self-launching gliders?

What do you suppose their true L/D was?


Jack

At 01:36 01 June 2006, Jack wrote:
Say, Derek, is it true that those V1's were actually
self-launching gliders?

What do you suppose their true L/D was?

I had a look at one in an air museum a few weeks ago.
They had very short stubby wings, so probably not that
good - 10:1 maybe. I believe that one was fitted with
a cockpit and test flown by the famous (and very small)
lady glider pilot Hanna Reisch when they were having
control problems during its development.

Most modern weapons were first developed by the Germans,
and the V1 was the forerunner of the cruise missile,
albeit with a much cruder guidance system. Fortunately
for us in the UK GPS hadn't been invented then. They
depended on gyro compasses to keep them running straight
and a little propellor on the front to measure the
range. When they reached their estimated target distance
the motor was cut and the elevators set to full down
so they turned into bombs. I am told that if you heard
one coming, you didn't worry unless the engine stopped.

I believe that British Intelligence put a lot of effort
into persuading the Germans that the V1s were overshooting
their intended targets, using captured German agents
to send back false reports of where they landed. Thus
they reduced the range setting so they fell short.
Some towns just south of London took a bit of a battering
as a result.

German agents weren't that difficult to spot - anyone
who couldn't pronounce 'th' and 'w' properly was immediately
suspect!

Derek Copeland

Actually the V1 distance actuator just gave down elevator. It was
supposed to go into a power dive, but most often the engine stalled
because of fuel starvation from the sudden manouever. There's a V1 in
the Smithsonian Air and Space museaum and there also used to be one in
the Science Museum in London. The control schematics are available on
the web.

V1s were also launched from aircraft over the North Sea at targets in
northern England, a procedure that proved less than satisfactory.
Separation from the host aircraft was not always clean, resulting in
the loss of quite a few aircraft. Even those successfully launched
went far astray of their targets or fell into the sea. Not bad for
such an early innovation, though. My father was an air-raid warden in
northern Derbyshire and saw one of the errant V1s going by.

Mike


Derek Copeland wrote:
At 01:36 01 June 2006, Jack wrote:
Say, Derek, is it true that those V1's were actually
self-launching gliders?

What do you suppose their true L/D was?

I had a look at one in an air museum a few weeks ago.
They had very short stubby wings, so probably not that
good - 10:1 maybe. I believe that one was fitted with
a cockpit and test flown by the famous (and very small)
lady glider pilot Hanna Reisch when they were having
control problems during its development.

Most modern weapons were first developed by the Germans,
and the V1 was the forerunner of the cruise missile,
albeit with a much cruder guidance system. Fortunately
for us in the UK GPS hadn't been invented then. They
depended on gyro compasses to keep them running straight
and a little propellor on the front to measure the
range. When they reached their estimated target distance
the motor was cut and the elevators set to full down
so they turned into bombs. I am told that if you heard
one coming, you didn't worry unless the engine stopped.

I believe that British Intelligence put a lot of effort
into persuading the Germans that the V1s were overshooting
their intended targets, using captured German agents
to send back false reports of where they landed. Thus
they reduced the range setting so they fell short.
Some towns just south of London took a bit of a battering
as a result.

German agents weren't that difficult to spot - anyone
who couldn't pronounce 'th' and 'w' properly was immediately
suspect!

Derek Copeland

Funny you should mention the V1, my father(19 yrs old at the time) who
was in German University in their Aeronatical Program was pulled from
school and sent to a factory to
assemble the V1 missles.

They were built rather hastily he says and it no doubt resulted in less
than predicatable performance when trying to set them out to a target.

I think the best they could hope for was that they would indeed explode
somewhere in England when sent off in that direction.

It was more for the demoralization of the enemy, not knowing when or
where these things would go, than specific targets and quite frequently
they simple exploded in empty fields.

Terrors of war are not limited by the imagination, and these are things
people would rather forget.

Ray Buhr

Actually, the ground launched V1s were surprisingly accurate for the
technology used. The biggest problem was variability of the thrust
produced by the pulse jet motor, hence the use of a simple distance run
control rather than a timer. Some V1 s were so fast they were
impossible to catch with existing aircraft, but some were slower and
could be caught and shot down or tipped up to upset the control system.
The most interesting story is the one already mentioned. The area
where they were falling was measured by radar, but more reliance was
given to reports from German spies (who were captured and feeding false
information). The range of V1s was later adjusted based on the false
information, steering more of them into empty countryside.

Despite the higher damage and death rate of the more sophisticated V2,
the V1 caused
a lot more distress because of its sound, visability and apparent
unstoppability.

Mike

jb92563 wrote:
Funny you should mention the V1, my father(19 yrs old at the time) who
was in German University in their Aeronatical Program was pulled from
school and sent to a factory to
assemble the V1 missles.

They were built rather hastily he says and it no doubt resulted in less
than predicatable performance when trying to set them out to a target.

I think the best they could hope for was that they would indeed explode
somewhere in England when sent off in that direction.

It was more for the demoralization of the enemy, not knowing when or
where these things would go, than specific targets and quite frequently
they simple exploded in empty fields.

Terrors of war are not limited by the imagination, and these are things
people would rather forget.

Ray Buhr