Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?

MS wrote:
Nothing personal at all. I guess it's because the absurdity of not
being able to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway using the
conventional forward slip or spoilers.

I used to fly a BG-12. In ground effect, with flaps down, and in no
wind conditions, I have used nearly the entire runway length to set
down because I was taught to never close the flaps.

"It couldn't be me making several
huge lapses in judgement, so it must be my instructors fault for not
providing me proper training. My instructors are too conservative.
They did not teach me everything I needed to know." The author never
stated it that way, but that's what I got out of the article.

Perhaps you and I read different articles. Or maybe instead of raking
him over the coals in 3rd party discussions, it is because I bothered
to actually ask Mr. Skydell--whom, I repeat, I do not know--about his
article and thus got a better briefing?

I was once accused of something by Larry Sanderson--whom I also do not
know. Did he ever contact me about it? No! He found it much more
effective to get up in a meeting of the National Soaring Museum and
make his accusations against me. That was not fair to the NSM Board of
Trustees (I was not even a member of the NSM) nor was it fair to me.
When I tried to draw him out, he dismissed me as being insignificant.

If "MS" has a problem with Mr. Skydell, he needs to talk to, or at
least do as I did and email him about it. "Flaming" him in ras serves
no purpose and only shows what a pompus ass "MS" is. Or, like
Sanderson with me, is Mr. Skydell beneath "MS" and thus not worth
talking to?

I have a real problem with people who stab someone in the back but
never take the opportunity to actually talk to the person. It shows
just how small that stabber is. Yes, I am talking about you "MS." I
may be doing this in a public forum, but that is because I do not know
who you are (my name and email is below) since you hide behind a
"handle" and this is the only way I can get your attention. Contact me
privately and maybe we can have a civil discussion.

I am an aviation safety counselor

Then you should know that all kinds of things CAN happen to normally
good, or even just adequate pilots. We are sometimes distracted or
frustrated. Sometimes when things go wrong, we get tunnel vision. Not
a good thing, but it happens. See the other posting about gear up
landings.

and I once had to counsel an ATP who
ran out of fuel on a personal flight.
Although he admitted to some of the
error, he was still in denial that ithe series of pilot errors he made
could be 100% avoided by him or other people.

No, it can never be avoided 100% by anyone because they are human.
People make mistakes, sometimes they are little mistakes sometimes they
are major ones. Why do you think that OSHA is still in business?

I wouldn't have the problem with the article if the author did not
blame "conservativism" or his conservative flight training as the real
blame for his lack of airmanship, forethought and planning.

Again, I think we read different articles. He basically said, as I
recall, "I am a conservative pilot and I screwed-up." Not, "I am a
conservative pilot and that caused me to screw-up." Being a
conservative pilot did not make him raise his landing gear instead of
opening his spoilers.

spoilers and a slip, I can induce 1,000 ft per minute sink at 60kts
which should be sufficient to land on a 6,000 ft runway from 500 ft AGL
over the numbers.

You seem to always miss the point. Mr. Skydell was practicing a
technique that someone, a friend, a CFIG, someone, has shown him. He
was NOT trying to make a normal landing but was practicing something
which, even to him, was unusual. He was right to practice the
technique but he had a cascade of screw-ups and ended up using the
entire runway and crashing. He admits to his mistakes and he admits he
screwed-up.

Geeze, as thick as you seem to be "MS", I will not be surprised in the
future to read a similar article about--but certainly not by--you. I
know you just as well as I know Mr. Skydell, but frankly, "MS," it is
my observation that people who belittle others have serious insecurity
issues of their own (no, I am not a shrink).

The article should have stated the inherent dangers with using a high
drag approach,

BUT IT DIDN"T. You have made your point about that. Get over it! You
cannot unring a bell.

Maybe a follow-up could/should be made, but the initital article did
not say the technique was dangerous. I get that, why can't you? I do
not know the technique (nor am I anxious to learn it) so I do not know
it is dangerous except that I don't know it and would likely botch it
if I did not have a good instructor teach it to me. The technique was
not the direct cause of Mr. Skydell's accident, although it did
contribute to it. His inability to do it right and then making a
series of errors was the cause of the accident.

I think Mr. Skydell should be commended for having the nerve to write
the article and Soaring should be congratulated for publishing it--no
matter what the flaws in the article might be. It was something we ALL
can learn something from--even you, "MS." Beating up Mr. Skydell or
Soaring serves no purpose.

Frankly, I would like to meet both of you, "MS" and Mr. Skydell. That
is the only way I will know which of you are right and which is the
idiot.

"MS" (and anyone else), I will sign my name and add my email address to
this one, write me if you want--Raul Blacksten

raulb wrote:

"MS" (and anyone else), I will sign my name and add my email address to
this one, write me if you want--Raul Blacksten

Hmmm, seems we cannot include email addresses. Well, you can get the
missing part from my "handle" or I am a SSA member and you can get my
email address off the SSA website "Member Locator."

raulb wrote:
MS wrote:
Frankly, I would like to meet both of you, "MS" and Mr. Skydell. That
is the only way I will know which of you are right and which is the
idiot.

"MS" (and anyone else), I will sign my name and add my email address to
this one, write me if you want--Raul Blacksten

Raul,

Hey it's me "MS"

It's just so easy to rip other people for their
mistakes anonamously. If you still want to
discuss it personally though, come on down
to Texas,

My real name is:

Joe Albritten
2202 Meadowview
Caddo Mills, TX 75135

Joe (MS)

Earlier, Raul Blacksten wrote:

I used to fly a BG-12. In ground effect, with flaps down, and in no
wind conditions, I have used nearly the entire runway length to set
down because I was taught to never close the flaps.

Sort of heading off on a tangent:

I also fly flapped, airbrake-free gliders. When I first bought one I
was told by several pundits to never ever retract the flaps on
approach.

Fortunately, I figured out pretty quickly that the pundits were just
plain full of it. Within a few flights I'd mastered the feed-forward
that it takes to go quickly and safely from 90 degrees to full negative
and back again.

Getting back on track, Jim Skydell gets my kudos on this one. Yeah, he
messed up. So? Who among us has never experienced any lapse of
judgement or reason, and fully expects never to do so? Please you to be
casting the first stone.

Bob K.

wrote:


My real name is:

Joe Albritten
2202 Meadowview
Caddo Mills, TX 75135

Mr. Albritten,

My email to you keeps coming back "unknown." I looked for you on the
SSA website and did not find you there. I am sending you a "snail
mail" letter and I hope it does not come back.

Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems), I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing, the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him, it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you, Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

My God I actually accused Jim of starting the string.
I just couldn't believe that anyone could be as dense
as you seem to be. Any way I've lost interest. Bye
Bye.
Chuck

At 12:54 15 July 2006, Ms wrote:
Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes
or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making
a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems),
I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Two distinct type of human error accidents dear boy.
Error of skill where a pilot is faced with a situation,
for which he has not recieved training, for which his
training has not been adequate or is outside his expected
level of skill, and fails to deal with it. Can be a
combination of Organisation fault, poor supervision
and lack of experience, perm any number from a multitude.
A error of judgement is where the pilot has the necessary
skills and training, knows what to do but fails to
sucessfully do it.

It may be that you would fall into the second category,
in fact given what you say, you do and your response
is therefore the best thing you could do. Not everyone
else does fall into that category and I do not have
sufficient information, I have not been able to read
the article, to say which category Mr Skydell falls
into. From what has been said on this forum probably
the first. He has learned and will be a far better
pilot for it, certainly better than you as you appear
to think you are either incapable of making a mistake,
or that if you make a mistake you will be so ashamed
that you will have to give up the sport. That makes
you very dangerous indeed.



12:54 15 July 2006, Ms wrote:
Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes
or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making
a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems),
I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to
overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside
the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could
all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I
told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good
luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway
down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an
apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing,
the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high
parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the
safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him,
it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you,
Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:34:42 GMT, "PeterK"
wrote:

Have you ever given any thought that there might be another method besides a
forward slip or spoilers??

There a none that work.


Bye
Andreas

Flaps and drogue chutes have shown some ability in this area...

-John


Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:34:42 GMT, "PeterK"
wrote:

Have you ever given any thought that there might be another method besides a
forward slip or spoilers??

There a none that work.


Bye
Andreas