Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?

Hmmm, I have emailed you--twice--and they both came back unknown. I
looked for you on the SSA website, not there. I even Googled you with
no success. I have written you a letter at this address, will it come
back as undeliverable?


wrote:

Hey it's me "MS"

My real name is:

Joe Albritten
2202 Meadowview
Caddo Mills, TX 75135

Don't bother, He's about as sharp as lead weight. I
think you wasted a
stamp.
Chuck

At 17:12 17 July 2006, Raulb wrote:
Hmmm, I have emailed you--twice--and they both came
back unknown.
I
looked for you on the SSA website, not there. I even
Googled you with
no success. I have written you a letter at this address,
will it come
back as undeliverable?


wrote:

Hey it's me 'MS'

My real name is:

Joe Albritten
2202 Meadowview
Caddo Mills, TX 75135

Bully for you! You went out and tried it in a cautious
manner and found that it worked. I have done these
approaches in a G-103, an ASK-21, and an L-23.

I'm an Eastern US pilot; I was required to do this
maneuver at two different locations in the Western
US

Again, it works; it is as stable as the 'normal' approach.
The normal approach requires a flare also and the
timing is critical for these, as well.

I can name two abnormal situations in which it would
be highly desirable to get down quickly, let's say
4000fpm.

Suppose you have a passenger who has had a heart attack
or a seizure.

Suppose you, as pilot, have just suffered a beesting
very near your eyes and they are beginning to swell
and you fear they might swell shut.

The High Parasitic-Drag Approach is a Good Trick, but
it has to be learned. I demonstrate it regularly in
BFRs.


At 00:06 14 July 2006, 5z wrote:

MS wrote:
The article should have stated the inherent dangers
with using a high
drag approach, diving at the runway with full spoilers
and then making
all the adjustments. It's not conservative. It's
not stable. It's not
needed.

Just as a data point, I tried the high drag approach
in an ASK-21
(probably what the author had also used) a couple days
ago, and in this
ship it works great, and is not unstable:

We were a bit low, turning final and 1000' short of
the threshold at
600' AGL. I pulled full spoilers and aimed for the
airport fence,
about 500' short of the end of the pavement. Only
managed to get
airspeed up to 75 or so knots before I had to level
out at about 50'
AGL. Then I found myself very quickly slowing to 50
knots and short of
the runway over the grass overrun, so did close the
spoilers until
crossing the pavement, then made a normal 1/2 spoiler
touchdown. If I
were higher, the roundout from the dive would have
occurred over the
runway, and so the only action would have been to level
out, wait for
airspeed to drop, and complete a normal (almost) full
spoiler landing.

So... I was too low to really have a need for this
maneuver. A slip
with full spoilers would have been enough. But...
In the ASK-21 and
quite likely any other sailplane with strong spoilers
and a good habit
of losing speed in level flight with spoilers (my ASH-26E
is not one of
these), this would be a useful way of losing altitude
much faster than
spoileer and slip alone. Next time, I'll try if from
a normal distance
turn to final, but at 1500' or so AGL.

-Tom

On 17 Jul 2006 05:35:50 -0700, "jcarlyle" wrote:

Flaps and drogue chutes have shown some ability in this area...

Indeed.
Unfortunately their effectivity is seriously restriced if they are not
installed on the glider in quetion...


BTW:
Is there any chance to find the article on the web somewhere? I'd
really like to read it in natura.


Bye
Andreas

Ahh, the thread that will never die ...watching CSPAN
broadcast the space shuttle landing....got me wondering...how
would it's approach and landing be described?

I don't know, but that's about the way I'da dunnit.

At 16:54 18 July 2006, Stewart Kissel wrote:
Ahh, the thread that will never die ...watching CSPAN
broadcast the space shuttle landing....got me wondering...how
would it's approach and landing be described?

Speaking of getting personal. You know Mr. S and have defended him for
personal reasons and have lowered yourself to insulting others.

Never said I was perfect. I make mistakes and learn lessons.
However, if I made such a huge mistake that I thought it exposed a
weakness ( such as freezing up) and it would be safer to quit the
sport, I would. I don't think that makes me dangerous dear boy. I
think that makes me practical.


Don Johnstone wrote:
Two distinct type of human error accidents dear boy.
Error of skill where a pilot is faced with a situation,
for which he has not recieved training, for which his
training has not been adequate or is outside his expected
level of skill, and fails to deal with it. Can be a
combination of Organisation fault, poor supervision
and lack of experience, perm any number from a multitude.
A error of judgement is where the pilot has the necessary
skills and training, knows what to do but fails to
sucessfully do it.

It may be that you would fall into the second category,
in fact given what you say, you do and your response
is therefore the best thing you could do. Not everyone
else does fall into that category and I do not have
sufficient information, I have not been able to read
the article, to say which category Mr Skydell falls
into. From what has been said on this forum probably
the first. He has learned and will be a far better
pilot for it, certainly better than you as you appear
to think you are either incapable of making a mistake,
or that if you make a mistake you will be so ashamed
that you will have to give up the sport. That makes
you very dangerous indeed.



12:54 15 July 2006, Ms wrote:
Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes
or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making
a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems),
I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to
overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside
the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could
all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I
told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good
luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway
down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an
apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing,
the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high
parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the
safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him,
it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you,
Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

On 18 Jul 2006 16:52:43 GMT, Stewart Kissel
wrote:

Ahh, the thread that will never die ...watching CSPAN
broadcast the space shuttle landing....got me wondering...how
would it's approach and landing be described?

Stabilized approach, glidepath control via airbrakes.
Standard glider approach.


Bye
Andreas

I have now had the opportunity to read the articles
that started this thread as Jim Skydell kindly sent
them to me. I do not intend to comment on the specifics
of his accident other than to point out that the comment
concerning a 6000 ft runway was in error. In effect
we are talking about 2 x 3000 ft runways.
Having read the articles I asked myself two questions

1 Could it happen to me?
2 Have I learned from it?
Despite my 10000 launches and 1300 hrs the answer to
both questions is a resounding yes.
I think the whole point of the articles has been missed
by some as Jim obviously knows the mistakes he made
and has chosen to share his human fallibility with
the rest of the gliding community. It is unfortunate
that some have taken the opportunity to ridicule him
because of this. He is to be congratulated for a courageous
and bold decision, not sniped at because some people
think he should have known better. The people who have
sniped at him are the very people who are likely to
make the same mistake. The articles also highlight
possible deficiencies in teaching and supervision and
it is right that these should be addressed. I would
urge everyone to read the articles carefully.
Looking back I have allowed my irritation with those
who have made unwarranted personal attacks to lead
me to do the very same thing, for that I apologise.
I stand by my assertion that if you think you could
not make a mistake you should not be flying.
I mean no disrespect when I say that living in the
UK I had never heard of Jim before this thread started
let alone met him. I thank him for his frank admissions
and for the opportunity to learn. Jim was lucky, he
was able to write about his experience. Reading his
articles might just save YOUR life one day.

DAJ
ASW17 401