Silly controller

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
...
Perhaps you didn't explain adequately, perhaps you weren't talking to a
sharp trooper.

Uh, I really hope all you ATC guys are "sharp troopers." You're
scaring me.

skym wrote:

Uh, I really hope all you ATC guys are "sharp troopers." You're
scaring me.

Stop by the tower sometime and have your eyes opened. Get your plane
back yet?

Newps wrote:

Stop by the tower sometime and have your eyes opened. Get your plane
back yet?

"It's in the paint shop." I hope this isn't like "the check's in the
mail."

went back to NorCal and cancelled IFR, [...]
When I reported back on the [practice] missed at Tracy
and requested flight following back to Hayward (KHWD)
I was asked to cancel IFR.

Maybe they didn't receive your original cancellation. Either NorCal
didn't really cancel, or they didn't transmit the cancellation properly
(would Tracy have advance strips on you?)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
(Christopher C. Stacy) wrote:

Roy Smith writes:
(Christopher C. Stacy) wrote:

The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000
until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted
IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar
airport, or executing the published missed approach procedure). How
is that not an IFR clearance?

There is no clearance limit -- you're not cleared "to" anyplace. The IFR
version of the above would be:

"Cleared to the Foobar airport, cleared ILS 23 approach, maintain 2000
until established".

There's also no such thing as an "IFR procedure". There are "instrument
procedures". You can fly them VFR or IFR.

Yes. The question at hand is how the pilot and controller understand
whether the instrument procedure is being flown under IFR or VFR.

Well, the NorCal controller who fielded my request for cancelling IFR
and for multiple practice approaches certainly seemed to understand that
I was no longer IFR.

My belief is that if you receive and accept a clearance like:

"Cherokee 123 SQUAWK 5432, fly heading 090; CLEARED TO the
Foobar airport ILS 23 APPROACH via Init MAINTAIN 2000
UNTIL established on the localizer."

that you are have accepted an IFR clearance.

Indeed. And had I requested a pop-up I'd expect (and typically get)
exactly that sort of response. I often get a pop-up back from Stockton
(or Sacramento) just for the hell of it (it's good procedural practice),
so I'm not unfamiliar with the difference between that and a practice
approach....

This phraseology is
exactly the same instruction that you would be given near the end
your flight on an IFR flight plan.

This is where you're wrong -- at this point in the flight, I'll get
something like "Cessna 04E, 5 miles from JOTLY, right turn heading 230
maintain 2000 until established, cleared ILS 29R" or similar, usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

It obviously has the syntax
of an IFR clearance: the words "cleared", a route (including even
a charted instrument procedure), an altitude, a beacon tracking code,
and a clearance limit (the airport). The only difference is the context
in which it was given. There is standard phraseology for ATC for the
specific situation of "practice approaches" to confirm that you are
going to operate under VFR, otherwise they issue an IFR clearance.
If you are a VFR flight and you ask for a "Practice Approach",
then ATC is supposed to issue the clearance with the magic words
"Maintain VFR", or else confusion may ensue.

Indeed, but that can be given very early on in the scheme of things,
especially when doing multiple practice approaches. I usually get the
"Maintain VFR..." bit when I first request (a) practice approach(es),
which might be some time before I actually get the clearance. On the way
back to Hayward under VFR flight following I got it many miles outside
SUNOL when I first requested the practice approach, quite some distance
before I was cleared for the (practice) localiser approach.


In the OP's scenario, confusion did ensue, because (according to his
recollection) the controller did not say "maintain VFR", and after
the approach was done and the pilot asked for flight following to
his home field, ATC advised him to "report when cancelling IFR".
There was some additional confusion here because the pilot asked
for "flight following", which is a radar service that you can receive
while operating under VFR. The pilot had never intended to ask for an
IFR clearance and was somewhat bewildered by ATC thinking he was IFR.

I think you have the OP's scenario horribly confused :-).

The original original point was that two Usenet posters (myself and
Robert) did the same approach, possibly on the same day, and both
practice approaches ended in them being asked to cancel IFR. NorCal's
usually pretty on-the-ball about this sort of thing, so both of us were
wondering whether NorCal dropped the ball, or whether there's been a
change in SOP for this sort of thing...

Hamish

In article ,
Newps wrote:

Hamish Reid wrote:

Since it was me you originally responded to, let's review the sequence
of events: I was on a pre-filed IFR clearance to Stockton (KSCK), went
missed on the ILS, went back to NorCal and cancelled IFR, requesting
multiple practice approaches. I got the standard "Maintain VFR..." at
that point, then did three practice approaches with NorCal: two at
Stockton, then the one at Tracy (KTCY) that caused the issue (Tracy's
VOR/DME GPS-A approach starts close to Stockton, so it's a natural on
currency flights like this). When I reported back on the missed at Tracy
and requested flight following back to Hayward (KHWD) I was asked to
cancel IFR. That made absolutely no sense at that point, since I hadn't
been on an IFR clearance since going missed on the ILS at Stockton some
30 or 40 minutes earlier. No mode C changes were made, which is (IIRC)
SOP with NorCal at Stockton.

OK, I can see what maybe happened here. You were IFR then went VFR.
When you're IFR you will be on a code that will show low altitude
warnings, this is not necessary when VFR. Your data block on the radar
scope while you were IFR is standard. One quick look at it and
everybody knows that you are IFR. Facilities can use any type of data
block for VFR aircraft. An IFR data block looks like this:

N12345
070 15
/
/
/
N
A way to show an aircraft is VFR is to put a "V" after the 15.
Here at BIL we will take the same airplane when he's VFR and it will
look like this:

TC345
070 15
/
/
/
N

So there's no way to mistake whether or not an aircraft is IFR or VFR.
The TC stands for twin Cessna. We have abbreviations for a lot of
different types.
So it's possible that after you changed to VFR the controller simply
forgot you were VFR, maybe forgot to put the letter in the data block.
This is why our system here at BIL is vastly superior to using full data
blocks.

Thanks -- a clear explanation from a controller's point of view. Seems
pretty damn plausible to me, especially since NorCal usually gets this
sort of thing right, and the controller who originally fielded my IFR
cancellation seemed in no doubt that I was VFR from that point on. If he
just forgot to update the data block, oh well...

Hamish

...usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

If you are on an IFR flight plan, you already have a clearance limit.
It was given to you when you got your clearance. "CLEARED TO FooBar
International via..." That doesn't get invalidated by an approach
clearance. If you are VFR, the approach clearance doesn't give you a
clearance limit, and thus does not make you IFR.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Newps writes:
This phraseology is exactly the same instruction that you would be
given near the end your flight on an IFR flight plan.

No it's not. You will never hear "Cleared to the Foobar airport"
as part of your approach clearance.

I agree that was written sloppily. In the one case, you get the
"cleared to" the airport earlier in the flight and the "cleared for
the approach" afterwards. In the othe case, you usually get directed
to some IAP or just radar vectored to the approach course followed by
"cleared for the approach". In the example that the Boston TRACON
supervisor commented on, what I said to him was the "cleared for..."
version. He said that this absent the "Maintain VFR" phrase, this
constituted a clearance limit for the purpose of IFR lost comm
procedures (which I hadn't asked about).

You could argue that he is wrong, of course.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

...usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

If you are on an IFR flight plan, you already have a clearance limit.
It was given to you when you got your clearance. "CLEARED TO FooBar
International via..." That doesn't get invalidated by an approach
clearance. If you are VFR, the approach clearance doesn't give you a
clearance limit, and thus does not make you IFR.

Indeed -- that's what we've been trying to tell the Other Guy (the
"there" up there referred to there being no clearance limit given in the
instructions you snipped).

Hamish

In article ,
Jose wrote:

went back to NorCal and cancelled IFR, [...]
When I reported back on the [practice] missed at Tracy
and requested flight following back to Hayward (KHWD)
I was asked to cancel IFR.

Maybe they didn't receive your original cancellation. Either NorCal
didn't really cancel, or they didn't transmit the cancellation properly
(would Tracy have advance strips on you?)

"Tracy", being an uncontrolled airport in NorCal's area, wouldn't have
any strips at all :-). I was on the same NorCal approach frequency the
entire time from before I cancelled IFR to when I got the instructions
to report cancelling IFR some 40 or more minutes later....

Hamish