CRJ crash at KLEX:

It's another check one of the gizmos is working well. As it happens,
the KBED localizer pretty much aims right at the the most common navaid
for departures to the west as well.

wrote:
On 28 Aug 2006 08:07:58 -0700, "Tony" wrote:

If it's not on your checklist, add "verify the DG matches the runway
heading before advancing power for takeoff." My experience is, that
will catch a failed vacuum pump, not a wrong runway. I also like to
have one of the navs tuned to the ILS frequency and it's NOT because I
never see the localizer needle centered when I fly an approach!


I'd appreciate an explanation for tuning to the ILS.

David

Rick wrote:
john smith wrote in message ...
Another thing I notice is the angle of turn from the taxiway to the
runway is about the same for the the two runways. There really isn't a
visual cue that the turn onto the runway might provide.

But there's one very obvious cue...there's no more taxiway once you've
arrived at 22. at the end of 26 you've got 2 taxiways to choose from. Then
there's runway 22 itself. Those visual cues should be obvious day or night.

- Rick

What no one has mentioned in this thread is the report that the lights
for 26 were not on. That visual cue screams that you're on the wrong
runway, particularly pre-dawn. If that's indeed the case, it would
speak to negligence. I wonder what they were doing/thinking.

Radu

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message

Not exactly untrue. FAR 121 requires pilots to be familiar
with all the airports they operate to/from. They are
required to be specially trained for certain airports. And
they are required to consider all taxi operations as
hazardous and run a sterile cockpit.

What you state is accurate in certain circumstances, but irrelevant in the
present instance. The answer to Tony's question remains a straightforward,
unequivocal "no".

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

I think seeing a heading of 260 instead of 220 while sitting on the
runway would clue me in, no matter what the signs looked like.

Not necessarily. Think of all the "read back, hear back" mishaps.
One hears what one expects to hear.
The same can be said for vision. One expects to see certain visual cues
so disregards the discrepancies.

"Rick" wrote in message
...
john smith wrote in message ...
Another thing I notice is the angle of turn from the taxiway to the
runway is about the same for the the two runways. There really isn't a
visual cue that the turn onto the runway might provide.

But there's one very obvious cue...there's no more taxiway once you've
arrived at 22. at the end of 26 you've got 2 taxiways to choose from. Then
there's runway 22 itself. Those visual cues should be obvious day or
night.

- Rick



I was wondering about this point myself.

If their taxi instructions (and I said "If") were RWY 22 via A A7 ... then
they maybe could have realized something was up if they never got to A7?

Jay B

On 28 Aug 2006 12:20:15 -0700, "Tony" wrote:


It's another check one of the gizmos is working well. As it happens,
the KBED localizer pretty much aims right at the the most common navaid
for departures to the west as well.

wrote:
On 28 Aug 2006 08:07:58 -0700, "Tony" wrote:

If it's not on your checklist, add "verify the DG matches the runway
heading before advancing power for takeoff." My experience is, that
will catch a failed vacuum pump, not a wrong runway. I also like to
have one of the navs tuned to the ILS frequency and it's NOT because I
never see the localizer needle centered when I fly an approach!


I'd appreciate an explanation for tuning to the ILS.

David

Thanks, I thought it was more subtle than that :-)

David

"Private" wrote in message news:OJGIg.476607

On a similar note, It is my understanding that in many airlines SOP, the
first time that a pilot flies a new aircraft (type?) it is full of
passengers as all training is done in a simulator.

As far as I recall (individual carriers may have stricter policies) the
only time the FAA requires you to conduct your first few flights (20 hours,
I think) under supervision in the cockpit is when you are transitioning
position. An existing FO or Capt can transition aircraft type to the same
seat and complete all requirements in the sim, as long as the prior in-seat
experience was with the same carrier and in a transport cat aircraft. When
you upgrade seat, even in the same type, you must go through IOE (Initial
Operating Experience) in your new capacity, under supervision of a check
airman.

These memories are quite old, so I may have some detail wrong.

If you are on the correct runway when you line up on the centerline for
departure, the localizer needle will be centered. If it is pegged to one
side or the other, you are probably on the wrong runway, or at least have
time to doublecheck what you are doing.

Jim



wrote in message
...
On 28 Aug 2006 08:07:58 -0700, "Tony" wrote:

If it's not on your checklist, add "verify the DG matches the runway
heading before advancing power for takeoff." My experience is, that
will catch a failed vacuum pump, not a wrong runway. I also like to
have one of the navs tuned to the ILS frequency and it's NOT because I
never see the localizer needle centered when I fly an approach!


I'd appreciate an explanation for tuning to the ILS.

David

"Tony" wrote in message

It's another check one of the gizmos is working well.

I think its a good policy, Tony. It is one more anomaly to catch your eye
if you should happen to be on the wrong strip of asphalt. It also sets you
up for a return, if required, as most times landings and departures are on
the same runway. I always used to setup the approach on every departure so
if we had to return, the PNF could just flip a knob and we'd be set up for
the approach.

My knee-jerk (emphasis on the jerk) reaction was that 22 had a full panoply
of runway lights and 26 was a dark hole, and several posters favored us with
links and advice about how the lighting was supposed to be. But there had
been recent construction, and no one in this group has first-hand knowledge
of the runway lighting status as of the time of the accident. Airport
directories and on-line databases are great, if everything is working as
designed, but are meaningless if the situation at the time of the accident
does not meet design standards due to construction or a similar problem.

Bob Gardner

"raduray" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rick wrote:
john smith wrote in message ...
Another thing I notice is the angle of turn from the taxiway to the
runway is about the same for the the two runways. There really isn't a
visual cue that the turn onto the runway might provide.

But there's one very obvious cue...there's no more taxiway once you've
arrived at 22. at the end of 26 you've got 2 taxiways to choose from.
Then
there's runway 22 itself. Those visual cues should be obvious day or
night.

- Rick

What no one has mentioned in this thread is the report that the lights
for 26 were not on. That visual cue screams that you're on the wrong
runway, particularly pre-dawn. If that's indeed the case, it would
speak to negligence. I wonder what they were doing/thinking.

Radu