End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I have a crazy, wild suggestion.... Fly your task so that you land before
any known definition of sunset and you will never need to worry. That is
what most pilots do. Those that do not are not playing fair - in my
opinion.

Paul Remde

I have a crazy suggestion too. It is absolutely clear the FAA rules
about what constitutes daylight flying are very much open to debate.
They weren't designed to make a level playing field for a glider
competition which is what you and Doug and a number of others want to
use them for. It's clear that all this talk about glider pilots getting
a bad rep, etc, etc is hogwash. You actually think some people are
cheating and you're using the FAA as an excuse to win the point.

So. If the SSA-OLC believes there ought to be a rule about how late a
qualifying flight can end, then it needs TO MAKE ITS OWN RULES! I don't
see why anybody should fly a competition conservatively and using the
FAA as a crutch - as Doug attempted to do - isn't going to work.

So. Paul, Doug, Al, everybody else. Stand on your own feet. Make some
rules. YOUR OWN RULES! Make a decision and defend it! Or else stop
the jaw-flapping. Stop hanging off the FAA!

Can I suggest you do the same WRT 18000feet and SUA boundaries.

The FAA's rules aren't designed to make a fair glider competition.
They're designed to keep pilots safe. If you want to run a competition
where all this stuff is measured to the inch and the second in complete
defiance of commonsense, have the guts to make your own rules. Stop
using the FAA as an excuse.

GC



"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of
soaring flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from
home or at altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead
and landed on time.
And exactly which time would that be, Paul?

You seem to have lost track of the story so far:
Doug wants to be able to pick illegal flights on OLC but he's having
trouble deciding which flights are illegal because he doesn't know when
it's "sunset" (as 'un'defined in the FARs) at all the places OLC flights
go to. Last night two astronomers locked horns and are heading for the
jugular over when sunset might be.

Now read on:

I know this won't help but in Oz the rules a
1. "Night" is the period between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight.
2. CASA (FAA equivalent) publishes beginning and end of daylight graphs
for latitudes from 0 to 45 throughout the year.
3. Daylight flight occurs between those times after converting local time
to Standard/Daylight Time.

Note that daylight "ceases" at a particular longitude solely dependent on
its latitude. No allowance for terrain, etc.

But the following is also in the AIP:
"Users ... should note that the parameters used in compiling the ...
Graphs do not include the nature of the terrain ... other than a cloudless
sky and unlimited visibility ... Consequently, the presence of cloud
cover, poor visibility or high terrain to the west of an aerodrome will
cause daylight to end ... earlier than that extracted from the appropriate
graph.
Allowance should made for these factors when planning a flight..."

The rules are reasonable but are no help in maintaining a level playing
field for a gliding competition.

So, Doug. Make up your mind what arbitrary rule you would like to
implement for the SSA-OLC and publish it. Let's say - evening civil
twilight at the latitude.

Stop using the FAA as an excuse and a crutch. Stand on your own feet.
Make a rule. Publish it. Enforce it. Cop the flak.

GC

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

If you look at
the subject line, and the original post to this thread, a reasonable
person would conclude that I ... am
trying to warn pilots in advance, so it does not become a bigger issue.

Just to keep the facts straight, let's say that "in advance" is a bit of an
exaggeration on Doug's part. The thread with the subject "...Warning..." was
posted *after* several flights were suddenly found to appear to be in
violation of the sunset rule.

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

I think allowing night flying would give too much advantage
to newer motorgliders ordered with lights, and would put the vast
majority of the existing fleet without lights at a severe disadvantage.

This "I think" example pretty much sums up the rulemaking "process" on the
SSA-OLC. Despite the long existing OLC rule that clearly *allows* night
flight (if and as permitted by local regulations), we here can "I think" of
a new rule and start applying (or not applying) it when and where we see
fit.

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:0b4Rg.694$Vk4.425@trnddc01...
Ramy wrote:
Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve.

We'd all choose to fly home, but we don't have to post that flight on the
OLC. Doug isn't suggesting you do something stupid to get some OLC points,
but he is asking you don't post flights that clearly go beyond sunset.

And the only lasting result of it is that the rest of us don't get to see
those flights and don't learn from their analysis. And for what higher
purpose do we have to give up this once wonderful resource?

Doug,
This is a lot of very fascinating reading, but a lo-o-ong way to the punch
line. Most people are interested in flying, then posting flights to OLC and
then reading the proceeds of the SSA BoD (maybe) -- in that order.

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
ups.com...

Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:KaRQg.200456$1i1.196173@attbi_s72...
Fly your task so that you land before any known definition of sunset
and

...and they'll come up with a new one.

That is the problem with the rules being changed on the fly. You submit a
flight and never know who, when and why will be scrutinizing it and for
what
violations. In this atmosphere of FUD, can you guarantee that the next
flight that you submit does not break any rules -- including those that
aren't defined yet?

This whole subtext of arbitrary rule making is becoming an Internet
myth, started and nurtured by people who assume that since they did it,
it must have been OK, and the trolls they feed with this logic. The
origin of the SSA FAR policy goes back more than a year, and is
repeatedly documented in the SSA Board Minutes. So it was not
arbitrary, or secret, or retroactive, or any of this nonsense.

Now I know most SSA members probably do not regularly review the Board
minutes, but they are published on the SSA website in the members
section. At the risk of injecting facts into an otherwise assumption
driven thread, here are the relevant quotes along with the links to the
source:

6/5/05
Agenda Item 16.0 On Line Contest Update Report

Mr. Garner reported on the work done to date on the development of a
Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU) with the On Line Contest owners concerning SSA's
participation in the
program.

During discussion, an issue of posting flights to the OLC where there
is a violation of a Federal
Aviation Administration rule (such as an airspace restriction) came to
the fore. The committee
agreed that no badge or record should be approved if the flight
involves unsporting behavior as
set out in the FAI Sporting Code. The committee also agreed that a
statement of policy on this
issue must be carefully worded. The committee asked that this issue be
referred to the Badge
and Record Committee for a policy that can ultimately be approved by
the Board of Directors.
Chairman Carswell agreed to review the draft MOU again before
proceeding. The sense of the
committee indicates the desire to proceed with an agreement with the
OLC officials.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
11. The Executive Committee asked that the Badge and Record Committee
be asked for a
statement of policy concerning the disallowance of any badge or record
flight that
involves the violation of an FAR.

http://www.ssa.org/download/ExCom_2005_Jun_05_Final.pdf

9/30/05
Agenda Item 11.0 SSA/OLC/FARs

Mr. Garner reported on the discussions that had taken place prior to
the meeting concerning the
issue of possible violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
in flights posted on the
On-Line Contest (OLC), flying in SSA sanctioned contests, and flying
for badges and records.
This issue would be further discussed at the meeting of the Board of
Directors.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-Final...tes%209-30.pdf

10/1/05
Agenda Item 9.0 Vice Chair Member Services & Information (Garner)

Mr. Garner reported on the On Line Contest (OLC). He advised a MOU had
been signed which
gives SSA exclusive right to the OLC in the U.S. This included hang
gliders as well. SSA did not
write the rules, just administer them. He reported that some flights
had been posted which
showed possible violations of FARs. He requested that a written policy
be adopted addressing
this problem.

A lengthy discussion ensued and Mr. Spratt moved to table the
discussion of this and form a task
force to recommend SSA policy on FARs. Mr. Reid seconded the motion and
it passed 14 in
favor, 7 against.

Mr. Reid moved the SSA adopt as official policy to FAR violations "The
policy of the SSA is
that FARs must be observed." Mr. Mockler seconded the motion, and it
passed unanimously.
A task force to study the application of this policy was formed with
Mr. Reid as Chairman, and
members, Ms. Brickner, Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Garner.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2005_Oct_01_draft.pdf

12/10/05
Agenda Item 11 OLC Enforcement Procedure

Mr. Garner introduced a paper with a draft enforcement policy that
would supplement the
Federal Aviation Regulation Policy approved by the Board at its meeting
in October, 2005. The
enforcement policy was then discussed at length, the provisions of
which were generally agreed
to. The committee asked that a sub-committee of the Badge and Record
Committee be
established to enforce this policy and to report to the Board of
Directors on the number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy. The policy will be
mounted on the web site.

ACTION ITEMS RESULTING FROM THE MEETING
7. A sub-committee of the Badge and Record Committee will be
established to enforce the
policy on FAR violations, and report to the Board of Directors on the
number of pilots
that are sanctioned under the terms of this policy.

http://www.ssa.org/download/00-PostedMinutes12-10.pdf

2/3/06
Agenda Item 7.0 - Vice Chair - Reid
. . .
Reid reported on detailed implementation of the SSA s general policy
that FARs must be
observed and referred to the draft motion in the Board Book. After
discussion, Reid
proposed and Hines seconded the following motion - "The SSA Board of
Directors can,
at its discretion, review the circumstances involving any flight and
can, at its discretion
after receiving the advice of any responsible committee, take any
action at any time it
deems appropriate". After discussion, the motion was passed with one
vote against.

http://www.ssa.org/download/2006_Feb_03_draft.pdf

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...

When you define this in terms of "FAR violation" you are
making a legal/regulatory judgment that the SSA and OLC
should not be in the business of making. You are
immediately drawn into the gray area of deciding whether the
pilot was reasonable in believing he could get home before
sunset and whether it was an emergency to continue flight as
compared to landing elsewhere.

Excellent point, and the one that very few at SSA seem to get or care about.

It would seem better to just set the rule at the OLC level,

....publish it *before* next OLC season (and in a less obscure way than SSA
BoD minutes), ...

deny credit

....yes...

and remove the posted flight since it didn't
count

....and a respectful no. Scored or not, those flights do count -- we all can
learn a great deal from them. They are, in fact, tend to be the most
valuable lessons, as they are the result of people pushing hard for big
goals. It's easy to follow the rules on a local flight, but there are but
few lessons in those.

Now, some will say that flights with apparent violations are bad lessons --
but that is only assuming we are all monkeys here.

And going back just one more time to "credits" and rules and enforcement
policies... One thing that I grew to hate about the modern SSA-OLC is that
it openly encourages people to look for "violations" in other people's
flights and report them. Otherwise, try to explain the spike in reports and
subsequent "sanctions". This has become one way to improve one's score on
the OLC -- and I hate it. I hate to think that this minute one of my soaring
buddies might be digging through my old traces looking for something to
report. Why? What's the purpose? To bump my score few points down and their
placing few lines up? If so, I sure hope they win a big prize! Zero out all
my scores -- I don't want to be any part of it.

And the most striking thing is that this would be so easy to avoid. Check
the traces automatically on submission, gray out and/or score with zero
those that do not pass and DON'T MESS WITH THEM once accepted. (Definitely
don't mess with them once the OLC statute of limitations -- currently four
weeks -- has passed.) This would reduce the incentive to "report"
"violations" to that of pure self-satisfaction, not even materialized in the
score sheet.

T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
--
Yuliy Gerchikov

Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:0b4Rg.694$Vk4.425@trnddc01...
Ramy wrote:
Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve.
We'd all choose to fly home, but we don't have to post that flight on the
OLC. Doug isn't suggesting you do something stupid to get some OLC points,
but he is asking you don't post flights that clearly go beyond sunset.

And the only lasting result of it is that the rest of us don't get to see
those flights and don't learn from their analysis.

Those few flights that aren't posted because they appear to blatantly
violate US FARs can be be posted in many different glider forums, or put
on a website somewhere, if they are so important to our enjoyment and
understanding. Since it's the posting of the flights that interests you,
and not the contest aspect, you or like-minded pilots could set up a
repository for them. It should be a lot simpler to set up than the OLC,
since there aren't any rules to check or files to verify.

And for what higher
purpose do we have to give up this once wonderful resource?

As for the "once wonderful resource" being lost, I'm still enjoying the
OLC just as much. It's called the OnLine Contest, not "What-I-did forum"
where you post whatever you like, so I'm thinking the higher purpose is
preserving the contest aspect of the OLC.

I am a bit disturbed at the implication that people who willingly or
unwittingly break FARs so obviously it shows on their flight file are
people we should be learning from.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Well said Eric!

Paul Remde

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:QxYRg.3547$Vk4.1710@trnddc01...
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:0b4Rg.694$Vk4.425@trnddc01...
Ramy wrote:
Well, SeeYou shows the sunset time, so I guess this is what Doug is
using.
Paul, your suggetion will work for short to medium or yoyo tasks when
one can plan to land way before sunset or can abort the task. But this
does not work for long O&R and triangle tasks, especially in the great
basin, where weaker conditions on course can slow you down
significantly. When this happens there are only two choices, to fly
back home and potentially land after sunset, or landout in the middle
of nowhere before sunset, hope you don't break anything, then spend a
freezing night in the cockpit waiting for your retrieve.
We'd all choose to fly home, but we don't have to post that flight on
the OLC. Doug isn't suggesting you do something stupid to get some OLC
points, but he is asking you don't post flights that clearly go beyond
sunset.

And the only lasting result of it is that the rest of us don't get to see
those flights and don't learn from their analysis.

Those few flights that aren't posted because they appear to blatantly
violate US FARs can be be posted in many different glider forums, or put
on a website somewhere, if they are so important to our enjoyment and
understanding. Since it's the posting of the flights that interests you,
and not the contest aspect, you or like-minded pilots could set up a
repository for them. It should be a lot simpler to set up than the OLC,
since there aren't any rules to check or files to verify.

And for what higher purpose do we have to give up this once wonderful
resource?

As for the "once wonderful resource" being lost, I'm still enjoying the
OLC just as much. It's called the OnLine Contest, not "What-I-did forum"
where you post whatever you like, so I'm thinking the higher purpose is
preserving the contest aspect of the OLC.

I am a bit disturbed at the implication that people who willingly or
unwittingly break FARs so obviously it shows on their flight file are
people we should be learning from.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:QxYRg.3547$Vk4.1710@trnddc01...
It's called the OnLine Contest, not "What-I-did forum"

Well put, Eric. I like the alternative name -- it captures the essence
better. I'd only tweak the pronoun slightly -- plural, perhaps...

Those are the two uses of the same resource, and the emphasis is a question
of individual preferences. Personally, I know many pilots who's biggest (if
not only) interest in OLC is precisely as in "What-I-did" forum (or, rather,
what others did). On the other hand, I can think of only two or three who
actually *compete* there -- meaning they plan their flights for OLC, watch
their placing closely, etc.

I am a bit disturbed at the implication that people who ... ... break FARs
... are people we should be learning from.

Good! Because that means you are willing and able to make your own free,
conscious and informed choice of what to learn from whom and why. (Note how
I said "learn from their [trace] analysis", and not "from them". There is
difference.)

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
--
Yuliy Gerchikov

At 02:12 26 September 2006, Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:

Personally, I know many pilots who's biggest (if
not only) interest in OLC is precisely as in
'What-I-did' forum (or, rather, what others did).
On the other hand, I can think of only two or three
who actually *compete* there -- meaning they
plan their flights for OLC, watch their placing
closely, etc.

Yuliy

Since you seem to be one of the loudest proponents
of the let me fly as long as I want after sunset
group. Could you give us a little background so
that we can better understand where your coming
from?
We can see from your flight file that you fly a
motor glider. Would you say that having the motor
has any influence on your willingness to fly past
sunset or even twilight?
Also are you a U.S. certificated glider pilot?

Martin Eiler