A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #311  
Old October 6th 06, 03:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

Neil Gould writes:

Your experience sounds to me more like a hardware problem than software.
For example, the continuous rebooting may be caused by an intermittent
ground connection to the G1000, causing its power to switch on and off.
Given that the panel was "hacked" by the same outfit that made the poorly
kludged aux tank system (a system that clearly does have a major design
flaw) and gave you the bogus operating instructions, I am far more
suspicious of them than Garmin. The G1000 was only the most obvious
indicator of a major problem somewhere in the aircraft.


Most reboots are caused by software. If the power were being switched
on and off, it would not be synchronized with the boot process.

If it were me, I wouldn't do such an interview, as there is no conclusion
about the real cause of the problems you experienced. To point the finger
on the basis of pure speculation would leave you vulnerable. As can be
seen from the discussion that this has generated, inuendo can go a long
way toward creating a lasting negative impression that has no basis in
fact -- yet.


On the other hand, it's hard to be too cautious, and publicity has a
way of giving the corporate world more of a conscience.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #312  
Old October 6th 06, 03:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

Larry Dighera writes:

And it's reasonable that a small metal shaving
produced during the Garmin installation may have been dancing on a
circuit board someplace.


This is rather grasping at straws. The most obvious and common cause
of multiple reboots is bad software design.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #313  
Old October 6th 06, 03:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

Dylan Smith writes:

Unless, of course, it was the power wiring. I suspect a momentary power
interruption could reboot a G1000.


It would not do so in synchronization with the software.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
  #314  
Old October 6th 06, 03:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Neil Gould
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Neil Gould writes:

Your experience sounds to me more like a hardware problem than
software. For example, the continuous rebooting may be caused by an
intermittent ground connection to the G1000, causing its power to
switch on and off. Given that the panel was "hacked" by the same
outfit that made the poorly kludged aux tank system (a system that
clearly does have a major design flaw) and gave you the bogus
operating instructions, I am far more suspicious of them than
Garmin. The G1000 was only the most obvious indicator of a major
problem somewhere in the aircraft.


Most reboots are caused by software. If the power were being switched
on and off, it would not be synchronized with the boot process.

The avionics in the aircraft that I fly reboot when they are powered off
then on. No synchronization required.

Of course, in the sims that you "fly", software is the *only* thing that
can cause a reboot, so it's understandable that you would arrive at that
such an opinion.

Neil



  #315  
Old October 6th 06, 03:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Neil Gould
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 723
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Dylan Smith writes:

Unless, of course, it was the power wiring. I suspect a momentary
power interruption could reboot a G1000.


It would not do so in synchronization with the software.

What gives you the impression that there was some "synchronization with
the software"? Nothing NW_Pilot reported would suggest it, and the
frequency and number of reboots implies something completely different.

Neil



  #316  
Old October 6th 06, 05:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Gig 601XL Builder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,317
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...


"NW_Pilot" wrote in message
. ..

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in message
...

"NW_Pilot" wrote in message
. ..


After this Issue I think that there should be manual back up gauges and
instruments for the required equipment under FAR 91.205!


If I were flying the kind of flying you are doing I'd invest in a 496. It
would give you at lease some level of backup for almost everything in the
plane except radio and engine instruments.


I have a portable GPS that worked great! XM weather is almost useless out
side the U.S.


I was thinking more about the nav and GPS derived panel not the XM weather.


  #317  
Old October 6th 06, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Gig 601XL Builder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,317
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...


"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
John Theune writes:

and as had been pointed out by a number of people, there is no solid
evidence that make it clear that the reboots where caused by the out of
range sensor.


It doesn't matter what caused the reboots, because only defective
software reboots in the first place.


No a hardware problem could have also been the cause. An electrical short
caused by the "hacked" wiring sounds like an excellent place to start
looking.


  #318  
Old October 6th 06, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Doug[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 248
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

The computer in cockpit is not foolproof. I can tell that there is at
least one Citation X where the computer simply shut down one engine
and left no trail of diagnostic data behnind, just empty memory.
Obviously you don't normally expect that sort of behavior from a
corporate jet...

They landed with one engine (no pilot overide) and the Cessna engineers
came out and did a lot of head scratching. I do not know what the final
diagnosis was on that one.

  #319  
Old October 6th 06, 09:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,953
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...



If indeed you are knowledgeable about Garmin software internals, I
appreciate your courage and your input on this topic.

On 5 Oct 2006 17:57:21 -0700, "g1000_eng"
wrote in . com:

I won't delve into the actual debate issues of whether to go glass,
realtime reliability vs. features demanded, benefits vs. risk of
various situational awareness methods, or anything like that.


Of course, the real issue is whether it's rational to rely on an
electronic system with a failure mode that is capable of leaving the
pilot with little else than three steam gages (AI, AS, Alt) and
magnetic compass, and taking out all communications, navigation,
engine instrumentation, and autopilot when it goes.

Perhaps you can confirm the loss of autopilot functionality when the
Garmin system goes off-line. If so, perhaps you can explain why the
autopilot is incapable of switching to being driven by the steam-gage
AI, and functioning as a wing leveler in that event. After all, if
the pilot is able to use the autopilot to keep the aircraft right side
up in the event of the Garmin system failure, he will be able to focus
much more of his attention on diagnosing the cause of the failure.
  #320  
Old October 6th 06, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dave S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 406
Default NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

Dylan Smith wrote:


Go ahead and post. I can vouch for the credentials of at least 2 of the
wingmen.. I'm tryin to figure out who #4 was...



I was actually #4 in the Bonanza. We put the slowest plane first :-)
Keiran Smart was in the Tiger. I'm not sure who was in the 170 though!


I'd forgotten about Kieran.. and I MISS that tiger..

Just so nobody gets their underwear ruffled.. these guys regularly flew
together in dissimilar types and were based out of the same field.. I've
sat in on their briefings in the past. The other two.. we do know who
they are.. but they both fly for a living and dont need the press...

Anyways.. enough of hijacked threads

Dave
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) Rich Stowell Aerobatics 28 January 2nd 09 02:26 PM
UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder John Doe Piloting 145 March 31st 06 06:58 PM
Air Force One Had to Intercept Some Inadvertent Flyers / How? Rick Umali Piloting 29 February 15th 06 04:40 AM
Nearly had my life terminated today Michelle P Piloting 11 September 3rd 05 02:37 AM
Logging approaches Ron Garrison Instrument Flight Rules 109 March 2nd 04 05:54 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.