ATC out to get us?

I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

I'm flying from my home base, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to St. Paul
Downtown Airport. Pull out your Twin Cities sectional if you have
one... Along the way my son and I are going to do some sightseeing over
the State Fairgrounds. The MSP class B airspace is 100/70, 100/40,
100/30, 100/23, and 100/SFC. The fairgrounds are just outside the inner
surface ring. The terrain is around 1000 ft MSL and some significant
towers in the area also. I would rather stay at 2500 which would place
me inside Bravo of the 100/23 ring over the Fairgrounds. Complicating
matters are two class D areas, virtually touching, at [34] between St.
Cloud and the Fairgrounds.

So I am VFR, flying to the southeast at 5500, I speak to approach and
ask for direct to the Fairgrounds for sightseeing with clearance to
enter class B. That is denied but I am advised to continue, maintain
3000. As I get close to the class D at [34], but still under the 100/40
shelf pf course, I point out that I will need to speak to Anoka Class D
to traverse their airspace unless Approach can get me clearance. They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure. Having faith they were not out to get me, I complied and
remained at 3000, bored through the upper reaches of Anoka's Class D.

I was next to enter the 100/30 ring at 3000. I have always understood
that 100/30 means inclusive so I advised approach I would either need
lower or a clearance to enter Bravo. I was told "Stay at 3000 and
you'll be OK." No "cleared to enter Bravo" magic words, so I
said "how about 2800 to remain clear of Bravo?" and clearance for
this was granted.

Next I was to enter the 100/23 ring so I advised approach "In order
to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance, I'll between 2500 and
2800 and clearance to enter class Bravo over the Fairgrounds". I was
switched to the tower frequency and given clearance to enter Bravo and
advised to stay northeast of the active runways, and after a few
circles, on to STP.

So all's well that ends well, but:

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

Mitchell

St. Cloud, Minnesota

mvgossman wrote:
They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure.

Nope, it means that they have an agreement with the tower to route
traffic through that area.

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

Certainly. As a matter of fact, the rules specifically say it is
their responsibility to handle it. Of course, reminding them that
you're heading for another airspace never hurts as you did. Sometimes
it yields a "contact FOOBAR tower on 118.5" or whatever).

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?

He was technically wrong, but you can claim you were at 2999 as well.
I've always found the difference between 3000 and +3000 (which they
do use in places) to be somewhat spurious.

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

I believe so. What they do is "coordinate" with the tower under letters
of agreement that the pilot has no access to. But if they drop the
ball, it's your problem.

However, you may have been above the D when you passed over them (I
don't have the relevant chart). Check for the altitude in square corner
brackets (something like [24]) in the D ring.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited?

You =must= hear the word "cleared" or it doesn't count. It may be that
the controller wasn't aware that exactly 3000 feet was a bust (though
2999 was not). Remember that if you are not under their control (that
is, you are VFR outside the alphabet) ATC can only advise you, not
direct you. When they said "maintain 3000 and you'll be fine" it is
advice and reassurance (which in this case would have been incorrect,
but that's why you're the pilot).

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

I don't know if there's a better way. I don't think that one is it
however. Sometimes you just can't do it (due to their traffic concerns).

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"mvgossman" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

Sounds like a great reason to file a NASA form.

"mvgossman" wrote:
1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

Yes, it's standard practice, especially near the ceiling of the CDAS.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited?

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.
If the conversation really went on as you described it, I'd say the
controller was guilty of using some sloppy language. He should have either
said, "cleared into the class bravo", or "unable class bravo clearance".
One way or the other, you would have known exactly what he meant. I
haven't the foggiest idea what "You'll be OK" means.

Whenever in doubt, especially with a controller who is not being clear, the
way you can force a clear answer is to say, "Confirm Cessna 12345 is
cleared into the class bravo at 3000", or perhaps even, "Understand Cessna
12345 is cleared into the class bravo at 3000". That should get you an
unambiguous response.

Is it conceivable that a controller would be so sadistic as to send a
place through Bravo without clearance and then bust them?

Sadistic, no. But, I could certainly see a mis-understanding leading to a
bust. That's why the AIM has a glossary of specific words that have
specific meanings. If you ad-lib, you get mis-understandings.

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

There is no "implied" clearance. If you are on an IFR clearance, you've
got a clearance. Nothing implied about it.

Could you file IFR? Sure you could. But, if you wanted to do that, don't
spring any surprises on the controller. File an IFR flight plan from your
home base to your home base. For the route, put in a single waypoint, a
radial/DME from the nearest VOR. Put a comment that explains what you're
doing. I just did one in DUATS and it looks like this:

1 Type of flight plan: IFR
2 Aircraft tail number: N9003S
3 Acft type/special equip: BE35/G
4 True airspeed: 130
5 Departure point: HPN
6 Departure time: (UTC) Tue Oct 24 16:00
7 Altitude: 25
8 Route of flight: CMK270010/D00+20
9 Destination: HPN
10 Estimated time enroute: 0040
11 Remarks: SIGHTSEEING OVER FAIRGROUNDS
12 Fuel on board: 0400
13 Alternate destination(s):

I'm assuming 'the fairgrounds' would be a locally familiar landmark to ATC.

But, in all honesty, that's probably more trouble than it's worth. Just
call up VFR, tell the controller exactly what you want to do, and make sure
you get an unambiguous statement from him if you're cleared into the CBAS
or not.

If you're taking off from a towered airport, as CD to get you the class
bravo clearance before you take off. Even if they can't get you the
clearance per-se, they can generate a strip for you, get you a squawk, and
then Tracon will be expecting your handoff. Once you get in contact with
the first approach controller, he's the guy to tell what you want to do, "I
want to proceed direct to the Gopher 150 radial, 12 DME, and orbit at 3000
in that vicinity for 20 minutes".

mvgossman wrote:


1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

Yes, that's their job. They are required to do that.



2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?

You were right to keep pestering them.



3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

VFR is better.

I would propose that there are sightseeing flights not worth taking
(and this may be one of them though I have not looked at a chart to make
an informed judgment).

I hereby recognize that we have this great freedom to fly practically
anywhere at almost any time.

I also declare that great freedom implies great responsibility. In
aviation we often call it pilot discretion.

And therefore conclude that some flights are best left undone despite
legal clearance, CAVU conditions and our irrepressible desire to view
earthly proceedings from a lofty perch.

Can I get a "amen"? (tightening chin strap)

(Fascinating post - this is not aimed at that particular situation, just
a general proclamation that might be applied to something like, the East
River part of the NYC VFR corridor)

mvgossman wrote:
I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

I'm flying from my home base, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to St. Paul
Downtown Airport. Pull out your Twin Cities sectional if you have
one... Along the way my son and I are going to do some sightseeing over
the State Fairgrounds. The MSP class B airspace is 100/70, 100/40,
100/30, 100/23, and 100/SFC. The fairgrounds are just outside the inner
surface ring. The terrain is around 1000 ft MSL and some significant
towers in the area also. I would rather stay at 2500 which would place
me inside Bravo of the 100/23 ring over the Fairgrounds. Complicating
matters are two class D areas, virtually touching, at [34] between St.
Cloud and the Fairgrounds.

So I am VFR, flying to the southeast at 5500, I speak to approach and
ask for direct to the Fairgrounds for sightseeing with clearance to
enter class B. That is denied but I am advised to continue, maintain
3000. As I get close to the class D at [34], but still under the 100/40
shelf pf course, I point out that I will need to speak to Anoka Class D
to traverse their airspace unless Approach can get me clearance. They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure. Having faith they were not out to get me, I complied and
remained at 3000, bored through the upper reaches of Anoka's Class D.

I was next to enter the 100/30 ring at 3000. I have always understood
that 100/30 means inclusive so I advised approach I would either need
lower or a clearance to enter Bravo. I was told "Stay at 3000 and
you'll be OK." No "cleared to enter Bravo" magic words, so I
said "how about 2800 to remain clear of Bravo?" and clearance for
this was granted.

Next I was to enter the 100/23 ring so I advised approach "In order
to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance, I'll between 2500 and
2800 and clearance to enter class Bravo over the Fairgrounds". I was
switched to the tower frequency and given clearance to enter Bravo and
advised to stay northeast of the active runways, and after a few
circles, on to STP.

So all's well that ends well, but:

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.

2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?

3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

Mitchell

St. Cloud, Minnesota

mvgossman wrote:
3. Is there a better way for this trip that you can think of? For
instance, is it reasonable to file IFR and then, along the way, spring
a request to circle the area of interest, under the implied clearance
to be in Bravo and Class D afforded by the IFR flight plan?

I have a similar issue with trying to sightsee my house, it's under the
2500MSL (~1500AGL) ring of PIT class B and close to the SFC area. I
haven't managed to try it yet, but I did go to one of those FAA "Meet
the Controllers" things where someone asked a question about
sightseeing. The controllers said give them a call on the phone a
couple days in advance, tell them what you want to do, and they'll try
to give you some days and times when traffic should be light and they
can hopefully accommodate you. But, he added that it wasn't entirely
predictable so don't be upset if you go at the appointed time and find
out they can't handle you.

todd.

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:47:13 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.

Hmm.

Yesterday, I was southbound towards CDW at 3500. I was VFR, but wanted
the LOC22 into CDW (for practice, not because it's an annoying airport to
spot at a distance {8^). The way I worded the request (more or less) was:

...requesting class B at 3500 and LOC22 circle to land

[CDW was landing 27 and it was windy enough that I wasn't going to argue
that one.]

The response was something like "both requests approved as requested" and
he then mentioned, though I forget the wording, that I'd only be at 3500
for a few more moments.

No "cleared". Yet I felt that there was sufficient clarity in the
approval of my request.

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

I was flying with someone else (because I was doing approaches under
foggles). We discussed whether that constituted a valid clearance. My
copilot was sure that it was fine, and I was pretty sure.

But I did mention that, just as we passed "that line" (pointing to the
class B boundary on the GPS), he was PIC.

Perhaps my friend should drag out and send in a NASA form laugh?

- Andrew

In article ,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:47:13 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.

Hmm.

Yesterday, I was southbound towards CDW at 3500. I was VFR, but wanted
the LOC22 into CDW (for practice, not because it's an annoying airport to
spot at a distance {8^). The way I worded the request (more or less) was:

...requesting class B at 3500 and LOC22 circle to land

[CDW was landing 27 and it was windy enough that I wasn't going to argue
that one.]

The response was something like "both requests approved as requested" and
he then mentioned, though I forget the wording, that I'd only be at 3500
for a few more moments.

No "cleared". Yet I felt that there was sufficient clarity in the
approval of my request.

I'm glad you thought so. Did you think you had permission to enter the
CBAS? Were you planning on doing so? Did you?

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

Depends. Do you think you violated some FAR?

What I would have done in that situation was to read back, "Understand I'm
cleared into the Class Bravo".

I was flying with someone else (because I was doing approaches under
foggles). We discussed whether that constituted a valid clearance. My
copilot was sure that it was fine, and I was pretty sure.

If he didn't say the word "cleared", then it wasn't a clearance. At least
not one that I would be confident would stand up to a review of the tapes.