ATC out to get us?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
What I would have done in that situation was to read back, "Understand I'm
cleared into the Class Bravo".

When I'm in that situation, I prefer "Confirm cleared into Class Bravo", to
make it explicit that I'm requesting a response.

--Gary

"mvgossman" wrote in message
ups.com...

I have a question that I am curious about having stumped several CFIs
locally.

I'm flying from my home base, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to St. Paul
Downtown Airport. Pull out your Twin Cities sectional if you have
one... Along the way my son and I are going to do some sightseeing over
the State Fairgrounds. The MSP class B airspace is 100/70, 100/40,
100/30, 100/23, and 100/SFC. The fairgrounds are just outside the inner
surface ring. The terrain is around 1000 ft MSL and some significant
towers in the area also. I would rather stay at 2500 which would place
me inside Bravo of the 100/23 ring over the Fairgrounds. Complicating
matters are two class D areas, virtually touching, at [34] between St.
Cloud and the Fairgrounds.

So I am VFR, flying to the southeast at 5500, I speak to approach and
ask for direct to the Fairgrounds for sightseeing with clearance to
enter class B. That is denied but I am advised to continue, maintain
3000. As I get close to the class D at [34], but still under the 100/40
shelf pf course, I point out that I will need to speak to Anoka Class D
to traverse their airspace unless Approach can get me clearance. They
told me to maintain 3000 "and you'll be OK". By this I assume
they meant "no traffic in the class D area at that altitude" but I
was unsure. Having faith they were not out to get me, I complied and
remained at 3000, bored through the upper reaches of Anoka's Class D.

I was next to enter the 100/30 ring at 3000. I have always understood
that 100/30 means inclusive so I advised approach I would either need
lower or a clearance to enter Bravo. I was told "Stay at 3000 and
you'll be OK." No "cleared to enter Bravo" magic words, so I
said "how about 2800 to remain clear of Bravo?" and clearance for
this was granted.

Next I was to enter the 100/23 ring so I advised approach "In order
to maintain terrain and obstacle clearance, I'll between 2500 and
2800 and clearance to enter class Bravo over the Fairgrounds". I was
switched to the tower frequency and given clearance to enter Bravo and
advised to stay northeast of the active runways, and after a few
circles, on to STP.

So all's well that ends well, but:

1. Can Approach grant clearance to go thru intervening class D when
VFR? I am accustomed to this as a matter of routine when IFR but I do
not know about VFR.


There are no clearances to transit Class D airspace while VFR. If you're
receiving flight following the radar controller is required to coordinate
your transition with the tower. You are not expected to do it yourself.



2. Why was I given in effect "permission", but no clearance, to enter
class Bravo at 3000, therefore permission to bust class Bravo and
potentially get cited? Is it conceivable that a controller would be so
sadistic as to send a place through Bravo without clearance and then
bust them?


I'd make "cleared to enter Class B airspace" part of my readback. If the
intent was to deny entry he'll have to correct the readback, if he doesn't
correct the readback I have a clearance.

The response was something like "both requests approved as requested" ...
No "cleared". Yet I felt that there was sufficient clarity in the
approval of my request.

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

Yes.

I agree there was sufficient clarity. However, if the FAA is willing to
bust people who don't hear "cleared" (or is willing to allow such a
rumor to circulate unchallenged) then they have to give us the correct
wording.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

I believe so. What they do is "coordinate" with the tower under letters
of agreement that the pilot has no access to. But if they drop the ball,
it's your problem.


Negative. If they drop the ball it's the radar controller's problem.


FAA Order 7110.65R

Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.


Odd, then, that that phrase appears nowhere in Part 91.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...
You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.

Odd, then, that that phrase appears nowhere in Part 91.

What other clearance would VFR traffic get that would allow them to enter
the Class B airspace? I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

I agree that the specific phraseology is not required. But *some* kind of
clearance is required, and that is stated in the FARs. I doubt VFR traffic
is going to get a landing clearance while still outside the Class B, and I'm
hard-pressed to think of another one that would be applicable to VFR
traffic.

Pete

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:27:03 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

Should I drag out and send in a NASA form?

Depends. Do you think you violated some FAR?

You don't need to have violated any rules to file an ASRS report. The
idea of the system is to gather data on safety issues. Immunity is
just a bonus to encourage reports. If you think that an unsafe
condition exists, feel free to tell about it, regardless of whether
you think you're on the hook. Data submitted when you've done
everything right are just as useful as data submitted when you've
screwed up. Don't worry that the safety issue isn't serious enough,
let the NASA analysts worry about that. The report costs nothing
(well, postage), might protect you from FAA action, and might help
make the system safer. It's a win/win.

If you're worried that you need to file a NASA ASRS report, then why
not just do it and get some sleep?

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Has anyone tried the electronic filing yet? If so, how about a pirep?

RK Henry

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

You weren't. Unless you hear "cleared into the class bravo", you're not.


Odd, then, that that phrase appears nowhere in Part 91.

You're picking nits, as you always do.

The wording in part 91 is "The operator must receive an ATC clearance from
the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an
aircraft in that area."

It does not say that you must hear the particular phrase "cleared into the
class bravo". It just says that you need "an ATC clearance". That could
be an IFR clearance ("cleared to the Gopher VOR 150 radial 12 DME fix, via
radar vectors, maintain 3000"). In response to a request for a class bravo
clearance, it could be "Cleared as requested". The real magic word is
"cleared".

The most common thing a controller will say is "cleared into the class
bravo". That's what you want to hear. Variations on the theme are OK, as
long as they include the word "cleared".

What's not OK are things like "approved as requested", "proceed", or the
wonderfully vague "You'll be OK" that the OP reports having heard. Nowhere
in Part 91 does it say, "The operator must be told that they'll be OK".

Nomen Nescio wrote:
You folks can be awfully anal, sometimes.

It comes from working with an agency who's main goal in life seems to be
ramming uncomfortable objects up your ass.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:40:03 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
wrote in
:

You folks can be awfully anal, sometimes.
I would have gone with.........
"Yea, go for it"
"You got it, Pal"
or
"Sure, why the hell not"

That would explain why you hide behind an anonymous news server.

Have you ever stopped to consider that these are matters of life and
death? Anyone who is so flippant as you has no place acting as Pilot
In Command.