Airbus 380

Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.


Shawn

Why ?! Did that on a regular basis (both 25m and ballasted ships), didn't
see any inconvenience.

"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...
If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
is not such a good idea.

Bruce

Shawn wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.


Shawn

I will agree with you up to a point. "MONEY" in the sense is not just
money...it is the time involved, it is the atmosphere of your
surroundings, it is the people they interact with...all of that
combined together is a "COST". Take a look at skydiving centers...young
person walks in and is greeted and treated as equal...and then they
train you how to throw yourself out of an airplane and you have
fun...or you get a skateboard or surfboard....and when it comes to the
end of the day, they seat down, open a bottle of wine, whiskey, beer,
they play loud music, etc....some people in our sport were "annoyed"
because I was too noisy...I speak loud, I like to listen to a loud
music, I like to drink wine and whiskey and eat whatever I want to and
the dinosaurs are saying to me "you are obnoxious" because they like to
whip their 100+ ships, fly around for a while, land and seat and talk
about old times very quietly, they have no sense of humor....what is
there that will attract more young potential pilots? Nothing,
absolutely nothing. The only thing is I don't care about what people
are thinking about me...I have my own ships, I can travel and I am not
old yet...but when I grow old (it can happen at any age) someone will
have to kick my rear end to bring me back to my youthful setting....
When it comes to a tow I agree that besides tow planes winches would be
an excellent addition to our training...I designed one....someone wants
to built one...I can do it....

Jacek
Washington State

"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I
recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with
landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was
and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a
new ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass
gliders are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than
they attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
winch and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
price, it's marketing.


Shawn

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels


I could not agree more with you, Bill.



--

Michel TALON

Bert Willing wrote:
Why ?! Did that on a regular basis (both 25m and ballasted ships), didn't
see any inconvenience.

"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...

If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
is not such a good idea.

Bruce



OK need to qualify that - in the event of cable breaks. You do have to consider
the field when considering whether it is safe to launch any particular glider.
There needs to be enough space to run out on an aborted take off, and the field
needs to be big/long enough that you avoid a launch where there is a part of the
climb with no good options. On our strip, which has a very rough and narrow mid
section there is a part of the launch where you would be too low to make the
nearby tar runway, and too high to stop on the reasonable part of the runway. I
know the solution is to fix the glorified cow paddock we fly from, but getting
glider pilots to spend money on non flying stuff is difficult.
Similarly it does require some skill to manage the extra energy with the big
gliders in the event of a cable break, or abort for whatever reason. With
experience on the part of the pilot and winch driver, this is less of an issue.

So - if the field is safe for the extra energy involved in this, and your winch
is powerful enough winching is no problem. It is quite a sight to watch
something like an ASH25 winch launching - and perfectly OK. There are many clubs
that do this all the time.

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Shawn" wrote
Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
winch and keep the glass gliders.
The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
price, it's marketing.


Shawn

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

Sure, but why not market to them, are they too rich? They can subsidize
the kids you mention below.
Works for health care. ;-)

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Flying anything with hard wings is expensive. Why not try to draw in
those rich kids looking for something more than their shallow affluent
existence has to offer? Maybe someone can rephrase that in a more
appealing way. ;-)




Shawn

In Germany a lot of gliding clubs offer rates of somthing around 500
Dollars a year to fly as much as you want, winch launches included -
even on expensive modern ships like the ASW27 or ASH25. This just seems
to be a question of organising a club in the right way. To be this
cheap these clubs rely on the work of their members. This makes flying
very time consuming, posing an equally large problem as expensive
rates. I know a lot of people who would prefer paying more to get rid
of obligations within the club.

Ray,

Get in touch with Uli at Airscapes. They've recently ramped up a
winch.

Frank Whiteley

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Bill,

Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
expensive towplane!

I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
(a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
to do their engine run up about where we are staging
for launch. Noisy buggers.

Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
A LOT cheaper!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



I understand where you guys are coming from but it's
instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders.
Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more
than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that
cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers.
Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people
away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the
launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

as i bury myself in the flak shelter.........
We are often reminded of the hardships endured by our forefathers in the gliding community to get us to where we now are. Wooden ships, breezy clubrooms if any, dodgy tugs, doped fabric.
C'mon you old codgers, with all due respect, this sport is DYING. What has been done is WHY it is dying. This train of thought is killing us!
To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!
There will always be a place for your beloved antiques, but please, dont force them on the youth or learners of today because you had to endure that yourself.
Get your students into that fast, slippery Carbon/kevlar/unobtainuim ship as soon as possible, and keep the passion alive or we will all be dreaming about gliding instead of doing it.

Do you notice the interest in F1 car racing? Do you think those punters standing around at car races dream of driving the race car, or the Model T Ford at uncle Bobs farm?
Do you look bored at the Hornets in an airshow or look awestruck at the balloons?

Its all about passion, DONT KILL IT!

The real expense in gliding comes from suits in insurance companies, expensive launches, fees for landing, fees for governments to restrict us, blah blah blah, not the actual cost of the machine!
Gliders have never been more affordable or accessable than they are right now, although the top ships are damned expensive, the top anything is damned expensive.

What we have done has led us to where we are. Its not a good place. It may see your days out but not my kids days, nor theirs and I am ripping the sport off if I dont put back in what I have got out of it. Is that your own position, you should ask?

We need change and the attitude that newbies should lump around the field in POS is a perfect place to start. Try this-

"gone solo young feller? Great!"
" Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"

Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake! KEEP THE PASSION

Get to the field and get them in it. Dont suffer them with the gadgets, its still about stick and rudder, get them to it ASAP and watch them roll up with their mates next month.

Once we have the newbie hooked, he/she WILL continue in a ship of their own, probably lower down the scale and more within the budget we are all constrained with.
BUT they will be one of us now, instead of looking elsewhere for a sport which will interest them.

SO what occurs?
Newbie is hooked, buys second hand glider.
Old hand sells secondhand glider to newbie, buys new glider for himself.
Sales for glider manufactureres go up, technology and skill go up, processes get simpler and cheaper by volume, gliders get cheaper!
What a shock!
Dont believe me?

How much is a new Ferrari, Maserati, Viper or Corvette? The things are everywhere, often driven by young folks wealthier than I. Good on them, why dont they fly?
Ask yourself, should they drive an old volkswagon just because they are new at driving?
Would they be passionate about driving in the old volkswagon? Dont bother with the safety bull**** argument, the two are different and shouldnt be used as an excuse.

CHANGE IT ALL NOW, start in your own head.
Or we all go down, make no mistake.

Bagmaker,
looking forward to the gin being spluttered through large droopy moustaches at him next weekend at the club.