GA is priceless

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:21:47 -0600, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote:


"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
...

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Jose wrote:

God almighty, I can't understand for the life of me why there
isn't an airplane in every American garage...

Would you really want Joe Sixpack on approach doing his lipstick with a
cellphone in his ear?

Jose

Darwin would take care of that!

Once upon a time that was true. Lately the "Guvmint" won't let Darwin do
his thing so well anymore.

Jay B


The "Guvmint" let's it happen all the time. This link
http://www.nsc.org/issues/driving/me...05fatality.htm at the National
Safety Council was a look at traffic death during Memorial Day weekend 2005.
They estimated there would be 25,400 disabling non-fatal auto accidents and
3,747 fatalities. That's in one long weekend.

They will have about 12 times that number of deaths in a year. If the
multiplier holds true that is almost 400,000 disabling injuries per
year. However it depends on what they mean by disabling. Missed
work, broken bones, hospitalized, or permanent disabilities? That
makes the number sustaining injuries almost unbelievably large.
..

But you are right, given the risk aversion that has swept and IMHO weakened
this country I really surprised that driving hasn't become as regulated as
flying.

That is because the average driver isn't smart enough to know it can
happen to him/her/them. It'll always be the other guy. So they make
their own rules of the road and with every one driving by their own
rules who knows what the car ahead is going to do be it coming or
going. There was a note in the local paper a while back stating that
every one knew it was far safer to drive in the passing lane and
probably close to 50% around here do so. That means some one pulling
out from your right will probably cross in front of you and into the
passing land. Never mind when some one pulls out your natural tendency
is to go left to miss them. It's not uncommon to see one from the
left go to the passing lane while one from the right goes to the
driving lane when they pull out, crossing in front of you.

It's difficult enough to get them to wear seat belts let alone
shoulder harnesses. I think the figure is some where up around 75% are
finally wearing seat belts, or restraining devices. We had to have
more powerful air bags to protect *unrestrained* passengers compared
to other countries.

Of course in Midland the have most of the traffic signs painted on the
road surfaces instead of overhead. One snow and no one knows which
road or lane goes where.
Drivers will not put up with things they find inconvenient.

So far, bicyclists and pedestrians are still fair game. You hit
another car and kill some one it'll probably be manslaughter and jail
time. Run over a pedestrian of bicyclists and it the court is in a
bad mood you might get a 6 month suspension.

Highway deaths and injuries doesn't even garner a mention in the local
papers or TV news unless it's a really bad one or buss load of kids.
Most don't even give them a second thought unless some one they know
was involved.

They have become "the *accepted* cost of doing business with "I think
it was 43,000 plus change, killed last year. Multiply by many times
for personal injuries which totals up to many billions of dollars in
medical bills (not counting the suffering) and more billions of
dollars in lost wages and production in industry.

One type of plane has five fatals in a year and there is an
investigation, the results of which will most likely cost the rest of
us money.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

("Buck Murdock" wrote)
Whatever it is, we can rest easy knowing the spambots have it now. Heh.


I wouldn't want THE TROLL, Ms Maniac X, to do that to me ...or anyone else,
and I don't think one of us should do that to him.

I absolutely hate calling someone out (or whatever the term is). So, I'm
sorry if that's what I'm doing here Buck, but it was a line of civility that
I didn't think needed crossing.

As always, YMMV ...I guess.


Montblack :-(
I always get a little nervous around feeding frenzies

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
...
GA is much like motorcyle riding. You don't want to do it when the
weather sucks, but when the weather is nice, there is simply no better
way to go.

Yes. But I was taught not to depend on motorcycles for
transportation, for exactly this reason.


Well, you were taught wrong. A car may be warmer and drier, but when push
comes to shove, a motorcycle will get through a lot more than a car. How do
I know? Because for years, ALL I owned was a motorcycle. Summer, (Michigan)
winter, rain, snow, no problem. There were lots of time when a snow storm
would pretty much shut down the city - so I always would take the
oppurtunity to go for a ride. Very little traffic. Plus I got to wave at all
the poor saps that were stuck in their cars. Now, cars are convienent, but
now that I don't own a bike any more, I have had to miss an occasional day
of work because I couldn't get in due to snow. That never happened on the
bike.

The funny thing is, when I sat down to type this, the talking heads on the
TV were going on and on about the National Gaurd having to rescue all the
stranded drivers in Colorado. If they were on small motorcycles with knobby
tires, they wouldn't be stranded.

The only thing tha twas a problem was ice. But cars don't do that well on
icy hills either.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Orval Fairbairn writes:


I would hazard a guess that "MX" prefers porn/"simsex" to the real
thing, too -- no STDs, no pregnancies, no "red plague," no "headaches,"
etc.


I'm not interested in sex, and I'd prefer flying (real or simulated)
over it any day (provided there were no safety issues).

What, don't want to become a member of the mile high club...even a
simulated member ?

....Ken

"Buck Murdock" wrote in message
...
Is anyone else picturing our resident troll playing Flight Sim when they
watch this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9pgOmlHE2k

Actually, I am reminded of the guy I sit next to at work. Except he swears
in English.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On 28 Dec 2006 14:04:14 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Even if they make straight in approaches at non-towered airports?

There's nothing wrong with a straight-in approach.

Overhead approach is far better -- it lets you see other traffic in the
pattern, and, done right, gets you on the ground fastest.

Both approaches are fine, unless the pattern is full.

Negative Ghostrider the pattern is full.


Jose is referring to my vocal disdain for the (usually corporate)
pilots who come blasting into a full pattern from all angles, landing
on any runway, from any point in the pattern, without regard for
procedure or protocol, putting everyone at risk in order to save a few
gallons of Jet-A/Avgas.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Negative Ghostrider the pattern is full.

Sorry, Goose...but it's time to buzz the tower....

Great balls of fire!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, iA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I wouldn't want THE TROLL, Ms Maniac X, to do that to me ...or anyone else,
and I don't think one of us should do that to him.

I absolutely hate calling someone out (or whatever the term is). So, I'm
sorry if that's what I'm doing here Buck, but it was a line of civility that
I didn't think needed crossing.

One really nice thing about Google Groups is that it hides email
addresses that are in the text of any message. Makes it impossible for
the Spambots to get them.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, iA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

What, don't want to become a member of the mile high club...even a
simulated member ?

Ha! Yet another use for our "Kiwi" flight simulator in the hotel!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, iA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 28 Dec 2006 09:33:53 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

I agree with you 100% on the convenience and utility of, and the love
of owning, my own airplane. However, to state "I can't understand for
the life of me why there isn't an airplane in every American garage" is
not only a disgusting comment, but one that suggests that you are
totally out of touch with the condition of this country. Sounds like
a person who once commented..."Let them eat cake."

Sadly, the reason GA flying is priced so high is because so few people
actually want to do it. Just like automobiles in the early 1900s,
airplanes today are hand-built, luxury items, with prices to match.

If "Every Man" in America wanted to fly, airplanes would cost about
what a new car costs -- maybe less, given how little structure is

Unfortunately there are a number of things that doesn't take into
account. One is liability. Reportedly at least half the price of
each new airplane is for liability. Much of an increase in planes
flying and we'd be moving from the more hours we fly the cheaper out
insurance due to proficiency to the more we fly the more we pay due to
exposure.

Another are the regulations and certified parts. Production on a large
scale would reduce the cost of individual parts as the basic cost
would be spread over more numbers.

So, although the idea would certainly bring the price down, I doubt
it'd be possible to ever come close to price of a new car. Maybe on
the order of two to three times to cost.

Another problem would be proficiency: We kill between 40,000 and
50,000 per year with something as simple as the automobile. I doubt
we'd be able to bring many of those people in before we'd see a lot of
restrictive legislation. That is one of the reasons I see the
"personal" aviation, or plane in every garage as pure science fiction
even if NASA has a program working on it.

I seriously doubt that even 10% of the drivers would even be
interested in flying if a new plane cost no more than a new car.
Most people have no interest in flying, and most have no aptitude for
it. Although most of us have at one time or another told at least one
person, that if we could get our license any one could, that is
unfortunately a longggg way from being true. It's not that it takes
superior intelligence to fly as it doesn't, but it does take the
proper mind set, judgmental ability, and willingness to commit. We've
all seen students who just couldn't make the grade be it personality
problems, ability to commit, or the ability to take responsibility.
I'm sure most of us who have been around for a while have seen pilots
that made us wonder how they ever got through the system. Fortunately
for us all those are few. Still if you watch traffic arriving at
Oshkosh for even a day it can alter your view a bit.

Then assuming we get a large influx of new pilots and airplanes, comes
the problem of air space congestion. Busier small airports would mean
more neighborhood resistance. How many more VFR flights could the
class C and D airports take before it became a problem? Soon they'd
either limit VFR traffic into these airports or prohibit it which
would mean still more traffic for the small airports.

I think we could get away with doubling or even tripling the traffic
at our airport, but that would only put us back to where we were in
the 70's and I'll bet the neighbors would be constantly complaining.

actually involved. (Don't ever look too closely at the stabilator
attachment points on a Cherokee, or the wing spar attachment points on
a Skyhawk, unless you're prepared to be shocked at how little "there"
is actually there.)

They are all built like beer cans. Look at the heft in the main spar
itself. It's just a few sheets of aluminum on edge held in place with
caps. On the Bo the front and rear of the wing are held to the spar
with piano wire. Albeit that is a very strong connection.
Two locals were pushing a Cherokee 180 back into a hangar. The door
wasn't quite to the stop and the beacon light atop the tail hit the
door. It folded the rear of the fuselage about three feet forward of
the horizontal stab leading edge.


Oh, wait -- you *can* buy an airplane for about what a new car costs.

You can buy an *old* airplane for the price of a high end car.

Our old Warrior, which faithfully carried my family from coast to coast
from '98 to '02, cost less than our hotel's courtesy van.

Today you are still looking at basically $50,000 to $60,000 for a used
4-place airplane with a few going for a little less. Most aircraft
aren't known for having much shoulder room. The Deb is not bad, but
it sure snug with a couple of good sized guys up front. OTOH when I
last flew the old Cherokee 180 I used to fly I felt cramped and that
is spacious compared to the 172 which is absolutely gigantic compared
to a 150.

Actually in the Deb one of us can take the controls and the other step
over the carry through into the back seats. On long trips we've done
that when we were reminded not so pleasantly that it's much colder in
Michigan than Georgia or Florida. Our jackets and sweaters were in
back. We went from the 80's to just out of the teens in one hop. that
sure did make me appreciate that new heater.


And STILL there isn't a plane in every garage. Why?

There aren't very many of those old airplanes in that price range out
there unless they have many thousands of hours on the airframe. Still
there just aren't a lot of airplanes out there of any kind.

BUT even if we could ignore price completely, as I said earlier,
probably 90% of the drivers have absolutely no interest in flying
regardless of cost. Many of them would not even get in a small plane.
They do not share our view of flying and would rather take a new bass
boat or big SUV and go mudding even if they could get a plane for the
same money.


Are the proletariat welcome at your motel, or only the AIRPLANE OWNERS?

Sadly, (except for the weeks around Oshkosh, of course) less than 5% of
our guests are pilots, by my count. (A large proportion of that 5%
*are* aircraft owners, however.) Probably another 50% are interested
in aviation, or aviation history -- but pilots are a small, dying
breed, way too small a group to ever support a hotel. Even one as
small as ours... :-(

Even in its hay-day aviation was a drop in the bucket compared to the
automobile.


But Mary and I work on converting each and every one of those "pilot
wannabees" who step into our lobby. I'll set them in the Kiwi, get 'em
shooting an approach into Madeline Island at sunset, and watch the
gears start turning...

That certainly is a good feeling. Our EAA Chapter 1093 has an Aviation
Camp for teens, twice each summer. We have an aviation scholarship
which takes one all the way to their private license, and we have a
"Kids to Oshkosh" day where we fly three over for the day with all
expenses paid. That includes a years membership, flight line passes,
food, and $20 for spending. I think we've been doing that now for
around 14 years which would mean we've sent 41 kids over there. It
would be 42 but we got caught short one year and I had to fly them
over in the Deb which mean the copilot was also chaperon and we could
still only take two.

A while back one of those kids from the aviation camp who flew the Deb
on his Aviation Camp, dual cross country took me for a ride in the 172
he's now flying. I talked to a girl from one of the camps who is
getting ready for college. She has been accepted into Embry Riddle on
a scholarship. She went to the camp one year and has helped with the
camp for the past couple of years. Her involvement also made her one
of the "Kids to Oshkosh".

It is a wonderful feeling to see the magic when the interest takes
hold. Even more so when it actually becomes something.

;-)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com