Holds on autopilot?

Circles, what kind of standard hold is that?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mxsmanic wrote:
In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
by hand through the holds?

Even in the very advanced G1000 aircraft the autopilot doesn't fly the
hold. However you can manually set the heading and drive it around the
hold. The GNS 480 will drive the hold and is awesome but its just a
box, not an integrated system like the G1000.
The best thing about any IFR GPS system (430,480,530,G1000) is that it
gives you the entry procedure. That's 95% of the complexity of the
hold, fingering out the entry.

When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

Usually when you are being tested on holding you are being tested on
two things...
1) Using a correct entry procedure (or at least staying on the safe
side) and
2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.
Just the flying around in circles part isn't anything difficult itself.

Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.

Usually you do use the autopilot, because the hold is usually when you
are briefing the approach. Pre-approach is the busiest time because you
need to study the approach.

In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
for the procedure turn.

-Robert

So last week then?

"....I distinctly remember, when I was little....."

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:43:00 -0800, Robert M. Gary wrote
(in article .com):


Mxsmanic wrote:
In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
by hand through the holds?

Even in the very advanced G1000 aircraft the autopilot doesn't fly the
hold. However you can manually set the heading and drive it around the
hold. The GNS 480 will drive the hold and is awesome but its just a
box, not an integrated system like the G1000.
The best thing about any IFR GPS system (430,480,530,G1000) is that it
gives you the entry procedure. That's 95% of the complexity of the
hold, fingering out the entry.

When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

Usually when you are being tested on holding you are being tested on
two things...
1) Using a correct entry procedure (or at least staying on the safe
side) and

Actually, you can use any entry procedure you want as long as you stay on the
safe side. An examiner is not going to ask for a teardrop entry, for example.
The purpose of the recommended entry procedures is to give you easily
remembered means of ensuring that you stay on the safe side.

2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.
Just the flying around in circles part isn't anything difficult itself.


You time the hold so that the inbound leg is one minute (or 1.5 minutes). You
can be anywhere in the hold at EFC time. The important thing is that you do
not leave the hold before the EFC time without a clearance. If I am on the
inbound leg and the EFC time is approaching and I have not gotten a further
clearance, I will call ATC. No point in letting everybody fall asleep at the
switch.

Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.

Usually you do use the autopilot, because the hold is usually when you
are briefing the approach. Pre-approach is the busiest time because you
need to study the approach.

In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
for the procedure turn.

Well, holds are a little more common than that. However, they are not as
common as they used to be. I miss them, in an odd sort of way. Some
departures also have holds in them for climbing to cruise altitude. IIRC
Missoula has one of these. Sometimes you also are given holding instructions
when you receive your departure clearance at a non-towered airport.

"C J Campbell" wrote

Well, holds are a little more common than that. However, they are not as
common as they used to be. I miss them, in an odd sort of way. Some
departures also have holds in them for climbing to cruise altitude. IIRC
Missoula has one of these. Sometimes you also are given holding
instructions
when you receive your departure clearance at a non-towered airport.

C J, I know you are a "turn the other cheek" kind of guy, but please
reconsider whether you want to be on the list of people that respond to MX.
He is among the ungrateful swine, and is not worthy of your knowledge. His
continued presence is not a "good thing" and your responses only prolongs
this.

Thanks for your reconsideration;
--
Jim in NC

In article ,
"Morgans" wrote:

C J, I know you are a "turn the other cheek" kind of guy, but please
reconsider whether you want to be on the list of people that respond to MX.
He is among the ungrateful swine, and is not worthy of your knowledge. His
continued presence is not a "good thing" and your responses only prolongs
this.

Thanks for your reconsideration;

In the post you replied to, didn't CJ respond to Robert Gary?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

"Bob Noel" wrote

In the post you replied to, didn't CJ respond to Robert Gary?

I didn't think so; I thought that was in response to MX. I could be wrong,
and if so, I apologize.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 05:05:14 -0800, Morgans wrote
(in article ):


"Bob Noel" wrote

In the post you replied to, didn't CJ respond to Robert Gary?

I didn't think so; I thought that was in response to MX. I could be wrong,
and if so, I apologize.


It was to Gary. I have nothing against Mx; I just tire of his arguments and
don't read them.

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
So why do you say to mix up holds having integral minute leg lengths? And
why are holds 4, 3, or 2 minutes?

The 4,3 and 2 are the standard holds a pilot has in his bag. So if he
needs to hold for 7 minutes, he starts with a 4 and then does a 3, and
he's back at the fix, ready for the approach. A 4 minute hold is 1
minute out, a 3 minute hold is 30 seconds out, and a 2 minute hold is a
circle. These are standard training techniques for teaching holds.

I never said that.
True, you did not explicitly say that. You did say:
"In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures."

I don't know your intent with that comment, but it appeared to me to be
implicitly deprecating the importance of holding patterns as a component of
instrument flight and the importance of being proficient in flying them.

Because simulator guys don't need to take checkrides, they don't need
to wait for further clearance. They're trying to reproduce real life,
in real life you almost never get assigned formal holds. I think you
take the gamers way to seriously.

-Robert, CFII

C J Campbell wrote:
Actually, you can use any entry procedure you want as long as you stay on the
safe side. An examiner is not going to ask for a teardrop entry, for example.
The purpose of the recommended entry procedures is to give you easily
remembered means of ensuring that you stay on the safe side.

Try taking an ATP check ride.

V Instrument
B: Task Holding
4) Follows appropriate entry procedures for a standard, nonstandard,
published, or non-published holding pattern.

-Robert, CFII

Stan Prevost wrote:
From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.


That relates to timed approaches from a holding fix, which is the only time
a crossing time will be specified. No specific tolerances on the time are
given anywhere that I know of. I wouldn't disagree with your "about one
minute", although nobody I know uses tolerances that large in training.
DPEs around here don't seem to specify a time.

From the PTS for ATP V Instrument
B: Holding
9 ) Arrives over the holding fix as close as possible to the
"expect further clearance" time.

-Robert, CFII