Safety pilot "flight time"

On 01/23/07 12:50, kevmor wrote:
Hmm... but then doesn't that seem kind of far fetched if you decide
before takeoff the safety pilot will be PIC, then the other person
wears the hood for .3 hours, the safety pilot can log the entire
flight, maybe 5 hours, as towards their total time? I wonder if any
examiner would question logging that much time? I could say, "hey,
wear this for a few minutes", then we both log the total time.

Well, your concerns are what I used to think as well. However, the regs
talk about total flight time as that from when the airplane first moves
under its own power for the purpose of flight, etc.

I would say that if you're on the flight to be a passenger, then don't
log it. If you're on the flight to be a required member, then log it.

What do others have to say about this?



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:
On 01/23/07 12:50, kevmor wrote:
Hmm... but then doesn't that seem kind of far fetched if you decide
before takeoff the safety pilot will be PIC, then the other person
wears the hood for .3 hours, the safety pilot can log the entire
flight, maybe 5 hours, as towards their total time? I wonder if any
examiner would question logging that much time? I could say, "hey,
wear this for a few minutes", then we both log the total time.

Well, your concerns are what I used to think as well. However, the regs
talk about total flight time as that from when the airplane first moves
under its own power for the purpose of flight, etc.

I would say that if you're on the flight to be a passenger, then don't
log it. If you're on the flight to be a required member, then log it.

What do others have to say about this

Just because the regulations are nonsensical, we don't have to be. I
don't take the trouble to log SIC time when acting as safety pilot, nor
do I act as PIC when acting as safety pilot. If I did, I'd log what
makes sense.

DGB

On 01/23/07 14:08, Dave Butler wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote:
On 01/23/07 12:50, kevmor wrote:
Hmm... but then doesn't that seem kind of far fetched if you decide
before takeoff the safety pilot will be PIC, then the other person
wears the hood for .3 hours, the safety pilot can log the entire
flight, maybe 5 hours, as towards their total time? I wonder if any
examiner would question logging that much time? I could say, "hey,
wear this for a few minutes", then we both log the total time.

Well, your concerns are what I used to think as well. However, the regs
talk about total flight time as that from when the airplane first moves
under its own power for the purpose of flight, etc.

I would say that if you're on the flight to be a passenger, then don't
log it. If you're on the flight to be a required member, then log it.

What do others have to say about this

Just because the regulations are nonsensical, we don't have to be. I
don't take the trouble to log SIC time when acting as safety pilot, nor
do I act as PIC when acting as safety pilot. If I did, I'd log what
makes sense.

DGB

Well, when I'm acting as safety pilot and not PIC, I log SIC time. What
I wasn't doing was logging the entire time of the flight as the "Total
Flight Time" in my log entry.

In fact, for "Total Flight Time", I put the same value I used for the
SIC time (which was just the time the Pilot Flying had the foggles on).

However, I think that I should be logging the SIC time and Total Flight
Time as two separate, different values.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On 01/22/07 15:00, Jim Macklin wrote:
Thank you for posting the letter. I agrees with my position
IMHO.

Are you saying that you believe the letter posted by Bob supports
your position?


The question is whether you note the time as 61.51 or
1.1 time.

What? You don't log 1.1 time. You either log your time as PIC or you don't.
1.1 describes the definition of PIC. 61.51 describes the requirements for
logging your time as PIC (among other things).

Oh my!


I wonder what cases have gone through in the past 14 years
to further clarify the issue?



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Dave Butler wrote:
In the future I will respond to questions of this kind by just saying
"read 61.51". Actually that's still a pretty good answer. There's a lot
of misinformation in this thread that can be cleared up in a few seconds
spent reading 61.51.

Or in a couple of minutes finding the *LAST* 6,437 threads with this
discussion.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:05:16 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

But ... and I hadn't considered this until now... you would still log the
entire flight time as "total flight time" even though the amount of time
logged under PIC, SIC or both is less than the total.

That's what I thought I had written.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 23 Jan 2007 12:50:00 -0800, "kevmor" wrote:

Hmm... but then doesn't that seem kind of far fetched if you decide
before takeoff the safety pilot will be PIC, then the other person
wears the hood for .3 hours, the safety pilot can log the entire
flight, maybe 5 hours, as towards their total time? I wonder if any
examiner would question logging that much time? I could say, "hey,
wear this for a few minutes", then we both log the total time.

You may be logging the entire flight as total flight time. However, the
only time that "counts" for your commercial is that time that is logged as
PIC time. In your scenario, you would log total flight time as 5 hours;
but PIC time is 0.3 hours.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ok, but it'll still count towards the 250 hours of "flight time", you
only need 100 of PIC.

61.129 - Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in
paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial
pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class
rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that
consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in
airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least
--
....


On Jan 23, 6:14 pm, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On 23 Jan 2007 12:50:00 -0800, "kevmor" wrote:

Hmm... but then doesn't that seem kind of far fetched if you decide
before takeoff the safety pilot will be PIC, then the other person
wears the hood for .3 hours, the safety pilot can log the entire
flight, maybe 5 hours, as towards their total time? I wonder if any
examiner would question logging that much time? I could say, "hey,
wear this for a few minutes", then we both log the total time.You may be logging the entire flight as total flight time. However, the
only time that "counts" for your commercial is that time that is logged as
PIC time. In your scenario, you would log total flight time as 5 hours;
but PIC time is 0.3 hours.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:05:16 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

But ... and I hadn't considered this until now... you would still log the
entire flight time as "total flight time" even though the amount of time
logged under PIC, SIC or both is less than the total.

That's what I thought I had written.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Are you sure about logging the second in command time?

61.51 says:

....
(f) Logging second-in-command time. A person may log second-in-command
flight time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements
of Sec. 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an
aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type
certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an
instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being
flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification
of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being
conducted.

In both cases, it seems to require that the time be in an aircraft that
requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate.

That isn't the case in any of the aircraft I fly as safety pilot, so,
I'd say if you are not PIC, you can't log the time as SIC. Maybe you can
log it as something else?

Brad

On 01/28/07 15:58, bsalai wrote:
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:05:16 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

But ... and I hadn't considered this until now... you would still log the
entire flight time as "total flight time" even though the amount of time
logged under PIC, SIC or both is less than the total.

That's what I thought I had written.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Are you sure about logging the second in command time?

61.51 says:

...
(f) Logging second-in-command time. A person may log second-in-command
flight time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements
of Sec. 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an
aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type
certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an
instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being
flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification
of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being
conducted.

In both cases, it seems to require that the time be in an aircraft that
requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate.

No. In number 2 above, it says:

"... required under the type certificate of the aircraft *or* the
regulations under which the flight..."

When the pilot flying is wearing a view limiting device, the regulations
require that the safety pilot be present.


That isn't the case in any of the aircraft I fly as safety pilot, so,
I'd say if you are not PIC, you can't log the time as SIC. Maybe you can
log it as something else?

Brad



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA