Lost log books

"buttman" wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable that a well maintained plane could have it's
logbooks go missing.

The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for their planes
stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that thing goes up in
flames, the planes are no less flyable.

Would you be PIC in an airplane if you KNEW no aircraft logbooks existed
for it?

Have something go wrong, and the first thing the FAA followed by the
insurance company asks for are the aircraft logbooks. Don't have them?
.... good luck ... hope you have lots of $.

Logbooks should be stored in a fireproof safe. And with today's
technology, not a bad idea to scan them and make a CD or two and provide
one to the insurance company. Yeah, it would need to be updated
annually, but if anything happens to the originals, you're never more
than a year behind in obtaining paperwork. Sounds extreme, but money
well spent, IMO. Gives me a headache just thinking of the red tape and
cost involved of having to re-create and/or redo, re-redocument,
re-certify shudder.

"Aluckyguess" :
I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all the places that
worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
Would this be as good as original if done? be replaced or re-done.

God forbid, if anything happened while you were having that fun summer
flying all over the place re-creating logs and the plane were totaled,
would the insurance cover the full value if you the documentation was
incomplete? Why would you want to put yourself in that situation? It
isn't as if finding an A36 with complete documentation is difficult.

Aluckyguess wrote:
I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the logs.
My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the plane.




When were the logs lost?

Logs lost last month can be far a different scenario than logs lost 20
years ago for a 30 year old airplane.

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:20:06 -0700, unicate wrote:

"Aluckyguess" :
I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all the places that
worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
Would this be as good as original if done? be replaced or re-done.

God forbid, if anything happened while you were having that fun summer
flying all over the place re-creating logs and the plane were totaled,
would the insurance cover the full value if you the documentation was
incomplete? Why would you want to put yourself in that situation? It
isn't as if finding an A36 with complete documentation is difficult.

While I agree having a complete set of logs for a given aircraft
is a desirable thing, in the event of a total loss, the insurance
company will pay the stated hull value regardless of whether
or not the aircraft has a "complete set of logs". The stipulations
of the policy will be followed to the letter, and typically, nowhere
in said policy does it say "we only agree to pay if you don't lose
your logs". You will have to prove the aircraft was in annual /
airworthy at the time of the loss, etc.

I'll also allow as how having logs missing on an aircraft doesn't
necessarily mean an automatic "pass" (i.e., forget it, go look for
another aircraft) but it does raise a flag while looking at an
aircraft I'm contemplating purchasing.

My "Murphy's Law" meter gets pegged over on the "what is the owner
trying to hide by claiming the logs have been lost" side of the
scale. 8^)

FWIW, my '54 C-170B had it's 1st log missing (several years worth,
from '54 to the early 60's) but had everything from then on. After
I had a look at the airplane and the rest of the logs, I reasoned that
there was sufficient documentation for decades of ownership /
operation and that I could live with not having the 1st logbook (it
was claimed to have been lost by the way).

My current aircraft ('54 C-180) has everything dating back to day
one, including the initial test flight entry by the Cessna test pilot
in 1954.

Bela P. Havasreti

I would see just what was required to get a valid set of
records before any money on the airplane sale changed hands.
You use all available data to create new logs, shop data and
records, parts receipts, just as long you can rely on the
data, the FAA will accept it. But sometimes you have to
re-do work and that can become very expensive.


"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Without logs, how do you know the flight hours on the
| airframe or engine? Without that, how do you comply
with AD
| notes?
|
| But if the plane looks good and he can prove ownership,
you
| He can and he has one annual done on it. The A/P had the
hours in his
| computer.
|
| can re-create the logs from sources.
|
| The FAA should have records on the airplane. Beech will
| have records of manufacture and probably spare parts
orders.
| He has that disk and the number of the guy who owned the
plane before him.
|
| It is some detective work and some parts, such as
engines
| and props may need to be overhauled or replaced anyway.
|
| He just did the prop it has 1 hour.
|
| Talk to a good A&P/AI who "knows the model" and do a
little
| research.
| I would do a complete annual using my mechanic as a pre
buy.
|
| My guess is that the price should be adjusted $25,000 to
| That was my guess, that equates to about 20%
| I dont think he will sell it at that price so it mute
anyhow.
|
| $100,000 lower than a "perfect" airplane to cover your
| costs.
|
| You will need a real annual inspection by YOUR mechanic,
not
| his. That will cost several thousand dollars, just for
the
| inspection and logbook research just to find out what
MUST
|
| I was thinking you could have a fun summer flying to all
the places that
| worked on the airplane re-creating the logs.
| Would this be as good as original if done?
| be replaced or re-done.
|
|
|
|
| thanks
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| "BT" wrote in message
| ...
| | he's got zero logbooks for it?
| |
| | start running.. away... very far away and as fast as
you
| can..
| |
| | BT
| |
| | "Aluckyguess" wrote in message
| | ...
| | I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it,
but
| he lost the logs.
| | My question is how much does this usually decrease
the
| value of the plane.
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

We kept the aircraft logs in the airplane. Shop records on
paper and computer where the back-up. Without the logbooks,
how do you do a proper pre-flight? Any school that locks
the logs away from the student or a renter acts as though
they something to hide.


"C J Campbell" wrote
in message
e.com...
| On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:57:14 -0800, Lou wrote
| (in article
.com):
|
|
|
|
| The flight school I work at has all the logbooks for
their planes
| stored in one room by the maintenance hangar. If that
thing goes up in
| flames, the planes are no less flyable.
|
|
| I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire
proof safe for that
| room.
| If they did go up in flames how would your student take
their
| checkride?
| Lou
|
|
| I have never seen a flight school keeping aircraft
logbooks in a fireproof
| safe. Usually these logbooks occupy several shelves in the
maintenance office
| and are much too large to put in any reasonable sort of
safe.
|
| Logbooks get lost, destroyed, or whatever, all of the
time.
|
| --
| Waddling Eagle
| World Famous Flight Instructor
|

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:57:14 -0800, in
.com, Lou wrote:
I would hope someone was smart enough to buy a fire proof safe for that
room.

One might hope... One might also be mistaken... grin

I had my plane on leaseback with a FBO quite a few years ago... The logs
were definitely not kept in any sort of fireproof safe... Come to think of
it, how many of us here even keep our logs in a fireproof safe?

.... quick search ...

Turns out that my logs are right *next* to my fireproof gun safe under
a pile of other stuff (computer parts and such)... Unfortunately, "close"
doesn't count... Considering the fact that I have a scanner, I probably
should scan a copy of the logs for archival purposes and store the images
remotely, perhaps on a private directory on my web site...

Grumman-581 wrote:
I had my plane on leaseback with a FBO quite a few years ago... The logs
were definitely not kept in any sort of fireproof safe... Come to think of
it, how many of us here even keep our logs in a fireproof safe?

I do.
After having to produce them for the FAA the day after an accident,
followed by getting them to the insurance ASAP (thank God everything was
up-to-date and well organized), it was pretty easy to see the costly
pickle I'd have been in if I didn't have them, or if they were
incomplete.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
. net...
Aluckyguess wrote:
I looked at an A36 and was thinking about buying it, but he lost the
logs. My question is how much does this usually decrease the value of the
plane.


When were the logs lost?
2005
Am I wrong in thinking that if you have and annual done and the mechanic
signs it off. All AD's and such are done that the plane is not flight worthy
or the FAA, insurance would have a problem with that.
In looking at the plane it has original interior and paint looks amazing for
a 73 better than most 80's that I have looked at.
All in all the owner will not sell it for what I want to pay for a plane
with no logs. I would have no problem flying it with a good pre-buy. Logs or
no logs.

Logs lost last month can be far a different scenario than logs lost 20
years ago for a 30 year old airplane.

There's a huge difference between a plane having recent logbooks
missing, vs. a plane that has all its last 20 years of logbooks, but
missing the ones before that.

If the first case, as long as the hours are correctly documented in the
current logbook for the purpose of life time limited parts (if any), I
don't see much difference from an aircraft with all logbooks. A very
detailed pre-buy by *your choise of mechanics* is still critical.

If an aircraft is missing recent logbooks, run away!



On Jan 25, 9:18 am, Bela P. Havasreti
wrote:


FWIW, my '54 C-170B had it's 1st log missing (several years worth,
from '54 to the early 60's) but had everything from then on. After
I had a look at the airplane and the rest of the logs, I reasoned that
there was sufficient documentation for decades of ownership /
operation and that I could live with not having the 1st logbook (it
was claimed to have been lost by the way).

My current aircraft ('54 C-180) has everything dating back to day
one, including the initial test flight entry by the Cessna test pilot
in 1954.