Sectional use

On Jan 28, 10:55 pm, Newps wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
And then the bad guys will head to the area of a major airport, turn
on the GPS jammer, and kill a few thousand people in an hour without
anyone even knowing they were there.
Do whatever you want to a GPS signal any time, anywhere. Not one person
would die as a result.

That's an odd conjecture to make, considering how many even in this
thread have mentioned how much some pilots rely on GPS in instrument
conditions. It's not hard to imagine a fair number of dark / cloudy
accidents in mountainous areas if a GPS signal was mucked with..
either by changing the "altitude" or even just "moving" the plane over
a mile or so.

Kev

Newps writes:

Right. A plane crashes after going hopelessly off course and nobody
else does anything. We all just sit and watch and go "huh, that's odd."
Get real. Can't happen.

Sure it can. But hopefully it won't. Clearly, some people aren't
prepared for it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Newps writes:

Do whatever you want to a GPS signal any time, anywhere. Not one person
would die as a result.

I knew there would be some use for USENET archives.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On 28 Jan 2007 05:09:48 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

It's interesting that people tend to be distrustful of new technology,
unless they find it entertaining and interesting, in which case they
often become suddenly willing to overlook the risks.

I think you're forgetting that it takes forever for all the old stuff
to go away -- at least not in America. Even though I rarely turn them
on, I've got dual VORs in the panel, with dual glide-slope indicators,
and (until last month) I still had DME, too. (I yanked it out, and
gained 10 pounds of useful load...)

Relying on GPS for VFR flying is only a "risk" if you believe that
everything else fails, too. IFR flying, flying an approach to
minimums in ice, now THAT is a different story.

I trust no one sorce of navigation.
I fly by the GPS, but I have both VORs (oneis RNAV) and the NDB on and
in use.

Sure the GPS gives me a course I couldn't come near following on any
of the other pieces of equipment, but the GPS system has been known to
fail. Only twice that I've heard of and I wasn't flying at the time,
but no piece of equipment is fail proof, nor is any specific mode of
navigation.

That is why the government decided to keep the VORs around for a
while.

GPS needs a back up.

However, even with IFR the situational awareness and accuracy of GPS
is so markedly improved that I really don't know any "hard" IFR pilots
who *don't* rely on GPS anymore. Every one of the pilots I know who
routinely fly IFR relies heavily on GPS technology now -- and that's
only proper.

I'd say I choose to use the technology, but not to rely on it. As in
any flight always have a "way out" and always have a back up.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

In article om,
"Kev" wrote:

Do whatever you want to a GPS signal any time, anywhere. Not one person
would die as a result.

That's an odd conjecture to make, considering how many even in this
thread have mentioned how much some pilots rely on GPS in instrument
conditions.

If people are using a GPS without RAIM or FDE then I guess using a VFR GPS
in IMC as primary without crosscheck could be a problem when exposed to
spoofing. But there the problem isn't the spoofing, the problem is not using
proper navigation equipment for the type of flight.



It's not hard to imagine a fair number of dark / cloudy
accidents in mountainous areas if a GPS signal was mucked with..
either by changing the "altitude" or even just "moving" the plane over
a mile or so.

How do you change the altitude or location of GPS and not have
RAIM or FDE alarm?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

In article m,
"Kev" wrote:

On Jan 28, 10:56 pm, Newps wrote:
Right. A plane crashes after going hopelessly off course and nobody
else does anything. We all just sit and watch and go "huh, that's odd."
Get real. Can't happen.

Except, of course, that's exactly what happened on 9/11 with the first
tower crash.

try it today and see what happens.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

FWIW, I use an expired sectional and match them up. After I'm done, I
tranfer the line from the expired to the new sectional.

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
...
On 2007-01-27, Doug Palmer wrote:
There is a trick for drawing a line from one side of the sectional (one
airport) to the other side (an airport on toe opposite side)

As I recall, the instructions are printed on the edge of the sectional.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

I think
the only reason it survives is that most of the population isn't
really aware of its existence. If they knew about it, they'd want to
close it down.

Well, I think you're wrong. I use my (small, but sometimes effective)
bully pulpit as an AOPA Airport Volunteer, founder of our airport's
advocacy group, and owner of an aviation themed hotel to tell EVERYONE
about General Aviation in my neck of the woods.

So far, it's only had positive results. I think public is generally
ignorant of GA -- you got that part right -- but I think your
predicted results are wrong.

The more people know about the affordability, freedom, and sheer joy
of personal flight, the stronger GA will become.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
And then the bad guys will head to the area of a major airport, turn
on the GPS jammer, and kill a few thousand people in an hour without
anyone even knowing they were there.

How many commercial flights currently use GPS?

On Jan 29, 6:29 am, Bob Noel
wrote:
In article om,

"Kev" wrote:
It's not hard to imagine a fair number of dark / cloudy
accidents in mountainous areas if a GPS signal was mucked with..
either by changing the "altitude" or even just "moving" the plane over
a mile or so.
How do you change the altitude or location of GPS and not have
RAIM or FDE alarm?

For purposes of this speculation, by spoofing the satellite signals.
A GPS receiver's RAIM algorithms wouldn't know any difference as long
as the signals came with "correct" data.

It's not much different than the "evil twin" method of spoofing a
Starbuck's WiFi hotspot, and then capturing everyone's keystrokes as
they log into their bank account. That is, you simply provide a
stronger signal.

Granted, it seems like a lot of work just to try to down a few GA
planes in a small hilly area. Airliners don't use GPS that much, if
at all. So it's not worth the trouble.

Personally, I'm more worried that terrorists are renting homes near
airports, and one day they'll all pop up at the same time with a
shoulder-fired missile. You can just imagine the government deciding
to raze all houses for miles around major airports.

Regards, Kev