Visual coordination of turns revisited

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:43:29 -0600, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

This is an interesting question. My first guess is you would have to have a
massively uncoordinated turn to detect it by looking out the window. If you
have rudders in your sim, try a turn with the rudder almost full left. Then
try it with the rudder full right. The only thing I can think of showing up
in the visuals would be a turn rate either more or less than it should be
based on the bank angle.

Give it a try and tell us if you can tell on your sim.

Consider boundary conditions. A slip, for example, could be
considered to be a turn so uncoordinated that there is no turn -- what
you see out the front window just goes by sideways.

Don

"Mark Levin" wrote in message
...

On Feb 7, 6:24 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

I know, but under VFR I'm supposed to be looking out the window, not
staring at the ball.

Guess what. In VFR conditions real pilots make coordinated turns by feel.
True you double check with a glance at the ball but it's done primarily by
feeling whether whether the force is pulling you down or whether it's
pulling you to one side. Down and you're coordinated. Simple. After a
while (and not a very long while either) it's just done subconciously. At
least on the small GA planes I've flown.

But of course in your world pilots should never rely on physical
sensations
for anything so I don't know how you would do it.
ml

This is your answer. In a sim you can't coordinate a turn realistically
without the ball. Why can't you coordinate a turn with quick glances at the
ball? I can do it in a light plane - by feel you can come close, so by quick
glances at the ball to verify, which I think most pilots do, you're doing
the same thing. If you have to sit and stare at the ball in order to
accomplish a coordinated turn, it's not much of a "simulation", is it?

Consider boundary conditions. A slip, for example, could be
considered to be a turn so uncoordinated that there is no turn -- what
you see out the front window just goes by sideways.

Don

Well, no, it's just a slip - the plane is flying sideways through the
sky. The turn needle won't show any turn, but the ball will be at
full deflection.

OTOH, try a "flat" turn sometime. Full rudder, enough opposite
aileron to keep the wings level. With enough patience, you can turn
this way, although stopping the turn on a specific heading becomes a
bit of a math problem (think about it)!

Watch out for spinning out of this one, though...

Kirk

If you want to see an extreme flat turn, click on the video whose URL
is in the They'e not good at straight and level -- it's a week or so
old posting.

On Feb 9, 4:50 pm, wrote:
Consider boundary conditions. A slip, for example, could be
considered to be a turn so uncoordinated that there is no turn -- what
you see out the front window just goes by sideways.

Don

Well, no, it's just a slip - the plane is flying sideways through the
sky. The turn needle won't show any turn, but the ball will be at
full deflection.

OTOH, try a "flat" turn sometime. Full rudder, enough opposite
aileron to keep the wings level. With enough patience, you can turn
this way, although stopping the turn on a specific heading becomes a
bit of a math problem (think about it)!

Watch out for spinning out of this one, though...

Kirk

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:55:39 -0800, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:43:29 -0600, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

This is an interesting question. My first guess is you would have to have a
massively uncoordinated turn to detect it by looking out the window. If you
have rudders in your sim, try a turn with the rudder almost full left. Then
try it with the rudder full right. The only thing I can think of showing up
in the visuals would be a turn rate either more or less than it should be
based on the bank angle.

It's almost impossible to do a coordinated turn just looking out the
window in FS9 or FSX. However they are "usually" good enough. OTOH if
you have a foot get heavy on one of the rudder pedals, unlike the real
world you will never notice it until you remove your foot and the
nose abruptly swings back. Then again that tendency is not unheard of
in the real world either. "Step on the ball and put it back in the dog
house" is an oft used phrase. Coordinated turns in FSX are tighter
than most turns, but almost impossible with out looking at the ball.
OTOH I've noticed that tendency in real life as well.

I think *most* pilots who fly the same plane for years will eventually
adjust to the amount of rudder pressure required to keep the ball
centered on climb out and in turns. Not all, but most. However I'll
defer to those on the group who fly with far more pilots than I do.
I would add that after having flown the same plane for many years I
decided to rent a 172 just to play. The first time I made a turn I
rolled left and the nose seemed to go right. The instructor checking
me out sat over there laughing. He remarked, you fly like that after
how many thousand hours?


Give it a try and tell us if you can tell on your sim.

Consider boundary conditions. A slip, for example, could be
considered to be a turn so uncoordinated that there is no turn -- what
you see out the front window just goes by sideways.

Or you are laying over on your side, but going where the plane is
pointed as in slipping down final.

Another interesting phenomena. In Real Life (IRL in simmer talk) is
the slip. IRL they are easy. With no tactile feed back in the sim
they can be very difficult. OTOH they will tell you how well the
flight dynamics have been modeled. In the sim they are done strictly
by what you see outside.

For instance, in the Deb I'm used to doing full deflection slips. Slow
to maneuvering speed, roll left and add right rudder to keep you
pointed straight. Use just enough aileron to require full rudder
deflection. This takes a fair amount of strength both to over come
the aerodynamic loads and the aileron to rudder interconnect. In the
sim there is no such feedback with stick and rudder pressure remaining
unchanged. BTW it can give some pretty spectacular rates of descent in
the Deb. If you are only interested in losing altitude in a hurry you
drop the gear and do as above, but you will find a bit more aileron is
available. This puts you in a steeply descending fairly slow turn and
I'd not recommend it except in an emergency. For one if you have any
passengers along it'll scare the crap out of them along with the
likely hood of dinner as well, but it's described in the emergency
maneuvers section of the POH.


Don
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

birdog writes:

This is your answer. In a sim you can't coordinate a turn realistically
without the ball. Why can't you coordinate a turn with quick glances at the
ball?

I can certainly do that, but I'm trying to develop some type of automatic
coordination of turns, once I figure out how exactly to move the rudder and
when. It would take only a few seconds to learn this in a moving aircraft,
but in a non-moving simulator it is a considerably greater challenge. It's
not critical because it is so easy and natural to do in real life, but it's
still something I'd like to learn. It's one of only a handful of aspects of
flying that depends heavily on physical sensation in practice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Danny Deger writes:

This is an interesting question. My first guess is you would have to have a
massively uncoordinated turn to detect it by looking out the window.

I think you're right. It seems really hard to detect a lack of coordination
just by looking out the window, even with a fixed reference (which MSFS can
provide).

If you have rudders in your sim, try a turn with the rudder almost full left.

In that case, the lack of coordination is obvious, but it doesn't help for
more normal turns.

One thing I'm not clear on is just how much the ball represents uncoordinated
motion in real life. If it's just out of its box but still touching it, how
much of a perceptible error is that in the aircraft? Is that enough to easily
feel, or does the ball react before you notice the sensation? Or, conversely,
do you notice the lack of coordination before the ball even begins to move.

I notice, for example, that the ball moves dramatically on the ground while
turning on taxiways, as one might expect, but I also know that in real life,
these turns would not produce powerful sensations. So the ball must be
sensitive indeed.

I've also read that the ball sometimes is not reliable at certain points in a
turn or during other maneuvers, but I'm not clear on exactly at what points
those are (when rolling out of a turn?).

The only thing I can think of showing up
in the visuals would be a turn rate either more or less than it should be
based on the bank angle.

That would work very well if I could calculate the proper turn rate in my head
quickly enough. I haven't been able to do that thus far.

My main consolation is that coordinated turns come so naturally that they
would not require much training in a real aircraft, only a few minutes of
practice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

--

NOTICE!!!!
Mxsmanic is NOT a pilot, has NEVER flown an aircraft and is NOT qualified to
issue competent information regarding any aspect of the operation of any
aircraft.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
birdog writes:

This is your answer. In a sim you can't coordinate a turn realistically
without the ball. Why can't you coordinate a turn with quick glances at
the
ball?

I can certainly do that, but I'm trying to develop some type of automatic
coordination of turns, once I figure out how exactly to move the rudder
and
when. It would take only a few seconds to learn this in a moving
aircraft,
but in a non-moving simulator it is a considerably greater challenge.
It's
not critical because it is so easy and natural to do in real life, but
it's
still something I'd like to learn. It's one of only a handful of aspects
of
flying that depends heavily on physical sensation in practice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Roger writes:

It's almost impossible to do a coordinated turn just looking out the
window in FS9 or FSX. However they are "usually" good enough.

That's part of my question. Yes, the ball moves a bit, but does that movement
correspond to a really bad turn in real life, or an okay turn, or is the error
so small that I wouldn't perceive it in real life, anyway? The ball seems to
move just from looking at it the wrong way, so it must be quite sensitive (if
it's like a spirit level or something, it must be quite sensitive and perhaps
also prone to brief overreaction).

OTOH if you have a foot get heavy on one of the rudder pedals, unlike the real
world you will never notice it until you remove your foot and the
nose abruptly swings back.

How would you notice it in the real world?

I have to be careful to keep the rudder centered when I don't need it. I set
the sensitivity to maximum and removed the dead zone, because I want it to
work like the real thing (in which, apparently, there is rarely a perceptible
"neutral" position for the rudder).

I think *most* pilots who fly the same plane for years will eventually
adjust to the amount of rudder pressure required to keep the ball
centered on climb out and in turns. Not all, but most.

I'd expect coordinated turns to be learned very quickly indeed, since so much
of it can be done by feel alone, and many people learn more quickly that way
than they do in a purely intellectual way (as by following the ball).

However I'll
defer to those on the group who fly with far more pilots than I do.
I would add that after having flown the same plane for many years I
decided to rent a 172 just to play. The first time I made a turn I
rolled left and the nose seemed to go right. The instructor checking
me out sat over there laughing. He remarked, you fly like that after
how many thousand hours?

Would he laugh if you had just changed cars?

Another interesting phenomena. In Real Life (IRL in simmer talk) is
the slip. IRL they are easy. With no tactile feed back in the sim
they can be very difficult. OTOH they will tell you how well the
flight dynamics have been modeled. In the sim they are done strictly
by what you see outside.

It is perfectly possible to do slips in MSFS and I've done them to lose
altitude quickly when landing (after studying how to do them). It's true that
you don't feel anything, but you can recognize the proper attitude visually.
It can be difficult to hold a steady slip in simulation, and it's particularly
awkward to come out of the slip, but I don't know if it's that way in a real
aircraft.

For instance, in the Deb I'm used to doing full deflection slips. Slow
to maneuvering speed, roll left and add right rudder to keep you
pointed straight. Use just enough aileron to require full rudder
deflection. This takes a fair amount of strength both to over come
the aerodynamic loads and the aileron to rudder interconnect.

It's awkward in the sim as well. But it is possible to do it well with
practice. You do need independent rudder control, of course, and preferably
pedals (with a twist throttle it's challenging indeed).

In the
sim there is no such feedback with stick and rudder pressure remaining
unchanged.

You can see what the aircraft is doing, though. If it's properly coordinated
things are steady outside the window.

BTW it can give some pretty spectacular rates of descent in
the Deb. If you are only interested in losing altitude in a hurry you
drop the gear and do as above, but you will find a bit more aileron is
available. This puts you in a steeply descending fairly slow turn and
I'd not recommend it except in an emergency. For one if you have any
passengers along it'll scare the crap out of them along with the
likely hood of dinner as well, but it's described in the emergency
maneuvers section of the POH.

I get very rapid rates of descent in a Baron with the technique, and the
airspeed stays the same, which is very handy. My passengers trust me
completely.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Danny Deger writes:

This is an interesting question. My first guess is you would have to
have a
massively uncoordinated turn to detect it by looking out the window.

I think you're right. It seems really hard to detect a lack of
coordination
just by looking out the window, even with a fixed reference (which MSFS
can
provide).

If you have rudders in your sim, try a turn with the rudder almost full
left.

In that case, the lack of coordination is obvious, but it doesn't help for
more normal turns.

One thing I'm not clear on is just how much the ball represents
uncoordinated
motion in real life. If it's just out of its box but still touching it,
how
much of a perceptible error is that in the aircraft? Is that enough to
easily
feel, or does the ball react before you notice the sensation? Or,
conversely,
do you notice the lack of coordination before the ball even begins to
move.

If it is caused by P-factor it is virtually unnoticeable without looking at
the ball.


I notice, for example, that the ball moves dramatically on the ground
while
turning on taxiways, as one might expect, but I also know that in real
life,
these turns would not produce powerful sensations. So the ball must be
sensitive indeed.


NOTICE!!!!
Mxsmanic is NOT a pilot, has NEVER flown an aircraft and is NOT qualified to
issue competent information regarding any aspect of the operation of any
aircraft.



My main consolation is that coordinated turns come so naturally that they
would not require much training in a real aircraft, only a few minutes of
practice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I have been flying real airplanes since 1975 and I still occasionaly have
to "step on the ball." And I'll bet every other pilot in this forum does
also.
Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!