Visual coordination of turns revisited

Tony wrote:

It just occured to me -- there is a group of real pilots here who do
maintain coordinated with outside reference only. Those glider guys
who tape a piece of yarn to the middle of their windscreen never have
to look at the ball, do they?



Not just the glider pilots. The R22 I got my helicopter rating had the
same thing.

Tony,

Those glider guys
who tape a piece of yarn to the middle of their windscreen never have
to look at the ball, do they?


The yarn is the (much more sensitive) equivalent to the ball, but it
obviously only works in the absence of a prop slipstream. Might work on
twins, come to think of it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Tom, I was careful, as you noted, to say it would work for a Baron.
The only prop driven single I can think of where it would work would
be a Lake ('prop driven' is intended to take SE jets off the table!).
I suppose you could put 'tells' out on the wings of SE prop driven
airplanes, but somehow I don't think I'd want to be looking at the
wing to figure out if I was coordinated.



On Feb 10, 4:53 pm, Thomas Borchert
wrote:
Tony,

Those glider guys
who tape a piece of yarn to the middle of their windscreen never have
to look at the ball, do they?

The yarn is the (much more sensitive) equivalent to the ball, but it
obviously only works in the absence of a prop slipstream. Might work on
twins, come to think of it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On 10 Feb 2007 05:35:09 -0800, "Tony" wrote:

On Feb 10, 7:17 am, "Tony" wrote:
I think the expression as to what would follow is "augered in".
There's nothing like 1.4 g's in aa climbing turn, followed by an
abrupt leveling off to make a novice's perception of coordinated
flight amusing.

On Feb 9, 10:50 pm, "Casey Wilson" wrote:



"Mxsmanic" wrote in message

.. .

Casey Wilson writes:
It just occured to me -- there is a group of real pilots here who do
maintain coordinated with outside reference only. Those glider guys
who tape a piece of yarn to the middle of their windscreen never have

However that's sorta cheating as it directly indicates the direction
and relative strength of the air flow. They are still looking at
someting on the aircraft.

to look at the ball, do they?

It's real handy when doing aerobatics too:-))

Spose it'd work stuck to the middle of the monitor screen?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tom, I was careful, as you noted, to say it would work for a Baron.
The only prop driven single I can think of where it would work would
be a Lake ('prop driven' is intended to take SE jets off the table!).
I suppose you could put 'tells' out on the wings of SE prop driven
airplanes, but somehow I don't think I'd want to be looking at the
wing to figure out if I was coordinated.

Yaw strings are used on the U-2...
http://www.barryschiff.com/high_flight.htm

Probably would work on Vari-eze's and the like also.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On 10 Feb 2007 04:17:29 -0800, "Tony" wrote:

I think the expression as to what would follow is "augered in".
There's nothing like 1.4 g's in aa climbing turn, followed by an
abrupt leveling off to make a novice's perception of coordinated
flight amusing.

Years ago I took my cousin for a ride. Dan was an adventerous sort.
After a bit of flying he wanted to see a steep turn. When I was a
student I learned steep turns at 60 degrees of bank and 2 Gs. I still
do them that way.

Dan thought that was fun so we did a 720 one way followed by
immediately rolling into a 720 the other way. He said it felt a bit
strange on the first 720 but it didn't bother him. He said he was
really doing good until we headed the other direction. At that point
he said he lost all connection with up, down, right, left, IOW he was
completely disoriented. It didn't bother him and he rather enjoyed it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Feb 9, 7:13 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Casey Wilson writes:
Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!

I guarantee that I would have it down very quickly indeed. I know the types
of coordination tasks that I do well, and this is one of them.

Been in the flight training industry for fourteen years now, and
the above statement is so familiar it's not funny. And after a few
hours they either realize they're wrong and start listening, or we
have to stop flying with them because they're such a threat, failing
to understand that they don't understand. They got their minds made up
and that's all there is to it. Some of them even come back from the
first flight either sick (had no idea what to expect in terms of
motion, especially in rough air), or had their tails between their
legs when they discovered they actually couldn't fly. Can't push the
PAUSE button and sort things out.
And I expect
that there are many people like me.

Yup. Way too many.

It's an easy and natural task (natural in
the sense that what perception indicates is accurate with default
interpretations).

Easy until you try it.

Dan

writes:

Been in the flight training industry for fourteen years now, and
the above statement is so familiar it's not funny. And after a few
hours they either realize they're wrong and start listening, or we
have to stop flying with them because they're such a threat, failing
to understand that they don't understand. They got their minds made up
and that's all there is to it. Some of them even come back from the
first flight either sick (had no idea what to expect in terms of
motion, especially in rough air), or had their tails between their
legs when they discovered they actually couldn't fly. Can't push the
PAUSE button and sort things out.

And then there are always exceptions to the rule.

Yup. Way too many.

So you've seen students who do very well from the start?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Feb 12, 1:57 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:
Been in the flight training industry for fourteen years now, and
the above statement is so familiar it's not funny. And after a few
hours they either realize they're wrong and start listening, or we
have to stop flying with them because they're such a threat, failing
to understand that they don't understand. They got their minds made up
and that's all there is to it. Some of them even come back from the
first flight either sick (had no idea what to expect in terms of
motion, especially in rough air), or had their tails between their
legs when they discovered they actually couldn't fly. Can't push the
PAUSE button and sort things out.

And then there are always exceptions to the rule.

Yup. Way too many.

So you've seen students who do very well from the start?

Yes, of course, but not one of them came in with the attitude
that it would be a piece of cake. They were teachable and willing to
set aside any preconceived notions. Many new students will say things
like "It's so much different than I'd imagined." The students who
think they know it all have a tough time adjusting, and often find
themselves far behind the students who didn't come in with a bunch of
sim time and the assumption that they were therefore ahead somehow.
The simmers have a pile of bad habits they have to unlearn, and a pile
of wrong ideas to discard. All that takes time and the digesting of
large amounts of humble pie.
Almost all students have no idea how much bookwork there is to
learning to fly. The handling of the airplane is only part of it:
there's air law, meteorology, aerodynamic theory, airmanship,
navigation, and so on. Lots of reading and studying. Some tough exams
and complex concepts. An example is the changing angle of attack of
the wing in various maneuvers, attitudes and airspeeds, and the
dangers inherent in some of those maneuvers as the boundary layer
begins to break up. I read of too many accidents that happened because
a pilot that should have known better got himself into a situation
beyond his understanding. Even some of those that study hard have
trouble visualizing AOA.
It's not all hands-and-feet stuff like a simulator implies.
Computers are great but they can fool a person into thinking that it's
easy. The sim is a good tool for teaching instrument scan and some IFR
stuff, but it's only of benefit to those who have had flight training
already.

Dan

On 12 Feb 2007 12:24:19 -0800, wrote:

On Feb 9, 7:13 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Casey Wilson writes:
Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!

I guarantee that I would have it down very quickly indeed. I know the types
of coordination tasks that I do well, and this is one of them.

Been in the flight training industry for fourteen years now, and
the above statement is so familiar it's not funny. And after a few

I started flying in 63, picked up the basics quickly and was flying on
my own in a few weeks. Things were different back then, but
necessarily easier. Most of the planes had a simpler panel by far and
sometimes the radios even worked. We had to do steep turns at 60
degrees of bank and were expected to fly cross country's with nothing
more than a map, compass, ruler, and watch. surprisingly, we had *far*
more traffic at the lower altitudes in many areas than today. Our
airport probably had on the order of 5 to 10 times the average
movements per day as now.

It was a typical case of starting out flying, a wife, two kids, and a
new home in the country came along and the flying fell by the way
side. The last entry in the log was September 1 st, 1964. The next
entry was October 30, 1987 when I went back to flying with the intent
of getting my license.

When I went in, I talked to two instructors. I told them although I
had been ready to take my cross country in a previous life I had not
flown in over 23 years. I thought we should just start from scratch
and would not be offended if they treated me in that manner. They
said that was fine and which of them did I wish to fly with. I
replied, "Why not both? That way I stand a better chance of having an
instructor available.".

Even now if I've not flown for a few weeks I can feel the cobwebs
gathering. I can tell if I am or am not proficient and I'm not afraid
to admit when I'm not. I also happen to fly an airplane that seems to
be sentient as it knows exactly when and how to remind me.

Procedures I can practice on a sim with or without an instructor, but
that does nothing for my good old airmanship, or proficiency at flying
the airplane.

hours they either realize they're wrong and start listening, or we

Hours? 10 minutes isn't enough?:-))

have to stop flying with them because they're such a threat, failing
to understand that they don't understand. They got their minds made up
and that's all there is to it. Some of them even come back from the
first flight either sick (had no idea what to expect in terms of

After well over a 1000 hours I still have to caution any new
instructor that "I do not ride well":-)) I can do basic aerobatics,
but I still do not ride well. After this long I doubt I'd do the
aerobatics well either. :-))
motion, especially in rough air), or had their tails between their
legs when they discovered they actually couldn't fly. Can't push the
PAUSE button and sort things out.

You mean you are one of those sadistic instructors?

And I expect
that there are many people like me.

Yup. Way too many.

It's an easy and natural task (natural in
the sense that what perception indicates is accurate with default
interpretations).

Easy until you try it.

What do you mean I have to hold heading, altitude, and airspeed all at
the same time? Who'd have guessed that holding altitude IRL within a
100 feet could be so difficult and I have to hold it wile doing steep
turns too?


Dan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com