Straight-ins at uncontrolled airports?

On Feb 12, 2:34 pm, Jose wrote:
You can tell you are
climbing by feeling it in the seat of your pants, for instance.

Well, yes, but you can also feel (in the seat of your pants) that you
are climbing, when you aren't. As you said, the senses are unreliable,
and part of the skills of instrument flying is being =able= to disregard
those sensations when they disagree with the instruments.


I was thinking more in terms of mxs' assertion you shouldn't learn
about those senses because they don't help your flying..

Or did I read him wrong ???

In article ,
Jose wrote:

If you're in the circuit, and about to turn base, or have just turned base,
but you've done a reasonably wide circuit, and another a/c calls a 5 mile
straight in final, what happens if you calculate that you will not get down
and clear before he lands? Do you contact the other a/c and advise him you
are already on base, or are already in the pattern, and ask him to join
downwind?

I call and tell him where I am. We negotiate who will be first and who
will be second.


Actually, since you are already in the pattern, and he is calling a
straight-in entry, he is not yet in the pattern! Therefore, you have the
ROW and he must adjust for you.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:25:44 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article ,
Jose wrote:

If you're in the circuit, and about to turn base, or have just turned base,
but you've done a reasonably wide circuit, and another a/c calls a 5 mile
straight in final, what happens if you calculate that you will not get down
and clear before he lands? Do you contact the other a/c and advise him you
are already on base, or are already in the pattern, and ask him to join
downwind?

I call and tell him where I am. We negotiate who will be first and who
will be second.


Actually, since you are already in the pattern, and he is calling a
straight-in entry, he is not yet in the pattern! Therefore, you have the
ROW and he must adjust for you.

There's some problem with that and 91/113g:

"(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of
this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has
already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final
approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the
purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the
right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in
front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake
that aircraft. "

The first part says somebody "on final" has RoW. The second says the
lower aircraft "approaching an airport for the purpose of landing"
has the RoW. Is the second part clarifying or contradicting the first
part?

Don

"Don Tuite" wrote in message
...
The first part says somebody "on final" has RoW. The second says the
lower aircraft "approaching an airport for the purpose of landing"
has the RoW. Is the second part clarifying or contradicting the first
part?

Don

I'd say the second part clarifies it if 2 a/c are about to land. The a/c on
it's 5 mile final will most definitely be at a higher altitude than the one
who is at pattern altitude and is about to turn onto final. This reads to me
that the a/c already in the pattern has ROW over the a/c on a long final.
Oz Lander

chris writes:

Umm, that logic is faulty... The other senses may be unreliable, but
that doesn't mean they don't help you fly.

If they are unreliable without visual confirmation, they are practically
useless.

You can tell you are climbing by feeling it in the seat of your pants,
for instance.

How do you know that you are climbing and not turning? They feel the same.

Do you suggest we disregard every clue the aircraft give you except for
visual clues because they are unreliable??

No, but I suggest that people who cling desperately to physical sensations as
some sort of magic dividing line between flying in real life and flying in
simulation try to get a better grip.

You can tell a lot by the seat of your pants and by listening, and
that helps you fly.

As long as you can correlate it with other information, essentially visual.

Feeling something in the seat of your pants tells you that the status of the
aircraft has changed, but that's about it. To figure out exactly what has
happened, you need visual input, or instruments.

This is like your thread about
coordinated turns - we can feel the turn, so we should use that
feeling.

Unfortunately, it feels just like a climb.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

chris writes:

I was thinking more in terms of mxs' assertion you shouldn't learn
about those senses because they don't help your flying..

Or did I read him wrong ???

I'm not saying that you shouldn't learn about them. But you should treat them
as incidental ... useful tips that can come in handy. They are not
fundamental to most types of flying (aerobatics and some other domains
excepted--even then, nobody does aerobatics blindfolded).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Orval Fairbairn writes:

Actually, since you are already in the pattern, and he is calling a
straight-in entry, he is not yet in the pattern! Therefore, you have the
ROW and he must adjust for you.

But if he is coming straight in, isn't he on final, and thus given the right
of way?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:33:25 GMT, "Crash Lander"
wrote:

"Don Tuite" wrote in message
.. .
The first part says somebody "on final" has RoW. The second says the
lower aircraft "approaching an airport for the purpose of landing"
has the RoW. Is the second part clarifying or contradicting the first
part?

Don

I'd say the second part clarifies it if 2 a/c are about to land. The a/c on
it's 5 mile final will most definitely be at a higher altitude than the one
who is at pattern altitude and is about to turn onto final. This reads to me
that the a/c already in the pattern has ROW over the a/c on a long final.
Oz Lander

Just for the sake of argument, what if the lower aircraft is on
downwind? On the 45?

Don

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:49:14 GMT, "Crash Lander"
wrote:

"Roger" wrote in message
.. .
I was referring to the comment about the 5 mile final previous to my
post. IOW if some one calls in on a 5 mile final and I'm on down
wind, I know I have at least two minutes or more (if he's telling the
truth) to land. From my position in the pattern I should know if I
have that much time. OTOH I call final when I pass the FAF for the
GPS 24 or 06 approaches. That is about 5 miles out (5.1 to be
specific) and I fly the approach at 120 MPH. That means I should get
to the runway in 2 1/2 minutes. So calling final passing the FAF lets
most of those in the area know where I am and about how much time they
have.

If you're in the circuit, and about to turn base, or have just turned base,
but you've done a reasonably wide circuit, and another a/c calls a 5 mile

Normally I keep fairly close in and fly down wind no more than about a
half mile out. I'll also be moving faster than *most* of the other
traffic so it depends on what's coming in and how fast. If he's
really 5 miles out even if I fly a mile wide pattern he'll be 4 miles
to my right at that point and we *should* be traveling at about the
same speed. That means if I continue on I'll be 3 miles ahead of him
when I turn final which is plenty of room. BUT never take anything for
granted.

straight in final, what happens if you calculate that you will not get down
and clear before he lands? Do you contact the other a/c and advise him you

First I'd calculate if I could land long. If not, I'd simply either
turn back down wind, or do a couple of 360s. Again it depends on
what's ahead of and behind me and how close. *Generally* I'd figure if
I had just turned base I'd easily be able to make a right 90 and
extend the down wind unless the guy behind was tail gating. Generally
I'm far more concerned if the guy ahead of me is going to clear the
runway or just taxi the next half mile down the center line.

Here we have 4 taxiways off 06/24 which means I can normally be off
the runway about 20 seconds after the mains are down. It takes
practice but I can normally put the mains on so I can make the next
turn off without excessive braking and without having to add power. If
I miss a turn off it's going to add about another 20 to 30 seconds.

OTOH, unless I'm sure I can do what I have planned I will try to err
on the cautious side

are already on base, or are already in the pattern, and ask him to join
downwind? or do you have to turn and extend your downwind because he called
final first? Obviously if you've just turned onto base, you've done your
base call, so he should know where you are, but he may not have heard you.
Oz Lander

The only safe assumptions are not to assume.
Actually I've had something like this happen a number of times.
I had announced I was on down when an SR-22 announced 5 mile final on
the GPS-06 approach. She was going to do a 360 and I told her not to
worry, just go ahead and land as she'd be on the ground by the time I
turned final Had it been a Cub or even 172 it would have been the
other way around. I've also been on final when an ag plane pulled up
to the hold line in front of the terminal which is about 1200 feet
from the end of the runway. I told them if they were ready to just
go ahead as they had plenty of time. If they had a problem on the
runway I was far enough out I could just go around.

I have a very wide margin as to what I fly for pattern speed and how
far out I turn base. I'm used to having ATC request I keep the speed
up so I've had lots of practice on knowing just how far out and up I
have to be and at what speed. In the Deb I have the advantage of using
the gear and partial flaps as brakes. When the gear goes out it really
does feel like some one put on the brakes

The old Cherokee 180 used to be very good at speed control as well.
Pull the power and a couple of slipping S-turns would slow it in a
hurry. With a steep final it could make some very short, short field
landings. I found the 172 to be by far the most sensitive to wanting
to float. My instructors had me doing S-turns and slips to slow down
and get down early on as a primary student. I did most of my primary
training in the Cherokee 180 although in a previous life many years
before I had about 20 hours in a Piper Colt.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:31:30 GMT, "Mike Young"
wrote:

On Feb 12, 6:41 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
information. So, is it harder to unlearn the dependence on physical
sensations that you've acquired while flying VFR in a moving aircraft, or
is
it harder to ignore unreliable sensations when you simply have never
depended
on them at all for flying (as in simulation).

I'm not so sure as I'd agree with that as we depend on those
sensations in our every day lives. Whether a new comer or veteran
those sensations, or bodily feed back are very difficult to ignore.
Some problems do crop up from a long life of flying VFR in docile
planes such as depending on the VSI for holding altitude instead of
the altimeter. CFIIs must get tired of saying "remember the VSI is a
*trend* instrument" Once it's indicating a climb or descent that climb
or descent has already been established, while you can catch it right
off the bat when watching the altimeter.


Do you mean, unlearn basic airmanship before you can get proficient on
instruments?

We all learn bad habits. Think of the drivers on the road who start
making up their own "rules of the road" :-)) I try to fly with an
instructor at least once a quarter to make sure I'm not getting any
bad habits ingrained.

My forehead would be a bloody red gash from continually bashing it against
my desk if I read your posts regularly.

Think of the instrument rating as meaning only that you are qualified to
operate as the controllers ask, without continual hand holding. Staying
upright and pointed in the desired direction is only incidental to that. In
that regard, sim flying is the antithesis of fitting into the airspace
system. Flittering about willy nilly randomly close-enough is the habit that
needs to be unlearned.

Some sims are good at teaching procedures and work well when used in
conjunction with real life experience. So does setting up a scanner to
listen to both a nearby approach and tower.

Although not set in stone you learn to expect what you are going to
hear, when and where. You also lean if any of those conditions are
not met it's time to call approach and ask. the numbers may be
different, but you normally hear the same things in the same order at
the same place and time. Actually it might be a good idea to write
down those clearances you hear on the radio and then read them back as
if you were the pilot of the plane receiving the clearance. There are
also specific times you are expected to call in such as when
established in a hold and when leaving a hold, or when reaching a
mandatory reporting point.

Some times when flying IFR late at night it seems like they are
calling in periodically just to make sure you are awake, or they are
trying to stay awake. I flew with Minneapolis Center one night for
well over an hour. I was the only plane I head them work in that
sector under 18,000. In many parts of the country not much happens
below class A airspace after 11:00 PM.

A couple days before on a trip to the west between 8 and 9 AM with
most of Michigan socked in. Low ceilings and tops around 7,000 The
controllers were busier than a one armed paper hanger with the itch.
That day I was going to Oshkosh (not during the fly in). When I take
off MBS departure passes me off to Cleveland Center, but within just a
few miles I get passed off to Minneapolis center which is usually
before I've leveled off. The radio was solid traffic and once on top I
was constantly looking for that traffic, but I saw none. At that
altitude crossing Lake Michigan "as I recall" Minneapolis center
passes me to Green Bay approach, who passes me to Chicago Center who
does the approach work for Whitman field and I don't get passed to the
tower until the FAF for what ever approach. Steve might refresh my
mind on that one as it's been a few years since flying into OSH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com