New trainer from SZD Bielsko

At 20:36 25 June 2007, Ian wrote:
snip

As a parallel, I do a fair bit of sailing. When people
ask me how to
learn, I always tell them to start, even if just for
a few times, in a
dinghy rather than a yacht. Dinghy sailing teaches
fast responses and
attentiveness: it's easy to slow down things for a
keel boat but much
harder to go the other way. I still make a point of
hiring a Wayfarer
at a local sailing centre a couple of times a year,
preferably on a
good blowy day, to remind myself what it's like and
sharpen my
responses.

But there are dinghies and dinghies... Learning on
a Wayfarer is as much K21-like as any dinghy can be
- it demands a lot of provocation to capsize given
that most sailing schools have an armoury of small
sails that get hoisted on a faintly breezy day for
beginners. Of course if you put up the full sails
then it's livelier, but also physically a bit too demanding
for many beginners due to the size of the full rig.

Learning on a Laser with full rig would be far too
much for most beginners, as would Fireballs and many
other racing machines. OTOH a GP14 is a great dinghy
to learn in (IMHO) and so is a Heron. At school we
sailed Enterprises which can be a bit much (not to
mention a bit fragile) but we were teenagers, fit &
fearless.

However, I do agree that anyone wanting to learn to
sail should do so in dinghies whatever their ambitions,
not just on the grounds you mention, but also in terms
of safety, cost and accessability. Safety might seem
odd, but keel boats with their much larger sails, winches
and so on have an additional set of dangers not present
in dinghies.

"Sandro Rodriguez" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use
full

Ubiquitous? I've never seen one in my life. Ok, I'm living in Europe.

up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the
release hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a
ASK-21 could be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

That's what instructors are for.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered the need to
monitor airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has always done that for
them.

That's what instructors are for.

Sandro, you are assuming US instructors have winch experience. Some do,
many don't.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels schrieb:

Sandro, you are assuming US instructors have winch experience. Some do,
many don't.

So you're saying that instructors with no winch launch experience teach
winch launches? Apalling. Or are you just saying that pilots with no
winch launch experience learn to winch launch on a try and error basis?
Apalling, too. (Besides my surprize that this should be legal.)

"Stefan" wrote in message
.. .
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Sandro, you are assuming US instructors have winch experience. Some do,
many don't.

So you're saying that instructors with no winch launch experience teach
winch launches? Apalling. Or are you just saying that pilots with no winch
launch experience learn to winch launch on a try and error basis?
Apalling, too. (Besides my surprize that this should be legal.)

Neither.

At a minimum, US pilots and instructors need a logbook entry showing they
have had instruction in ground launch techniques. In fact, most are
responsible enough to go much further in learning what they need to know.
Nonetheless, there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings about basic winch
technique.

I spend a lot of time doing winch training. One of the big
misunderstandings I encounter is the assumption that all winch launches are
made with full-up elevator. That's why I reacted to the earlier post.

Bill Daniels

On 26 Jun, 17:29, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

I spend a lot of time doing winch training. One of the big
misunderstandings I encounter is the assumption that all winch launches are
made with full-up elevator. That's why I reacted to the earlier post.

There is at least one large club in England which teaches this as the
right way to winch launch. They aren't worried about spins, because
their gliders are unspinnable and they aren't worried about cable
breaks because they chaneg the cables regularly. So that's all right
then.

Ian

At 14:42 26 June 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Sandro Rodriguez' wrote in message
h...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer
2-33 does use
full

Ubiquitous? I've never seen one in my life. Ok, I'm
living in Europe.

up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate
position of the
release hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile
a trainer like a
ASK-21 could be in trouble if he misunderstands the
difference.

That's what instructors are for.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience
on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered
the need to
monitor airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has
always done that for
them.

That's what instructors are for.

Sandro, you are assuming US instructors have winch
experience. Some do,
many don't.

But surely only the ones with winch experience teach
winch launching? So it's not an issue? And surely
no-one goes from aerotow to winching without getting
some instruction?

Sally W wrote:
At 14:42 26 June 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
'Sandro Rodriguez' wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer
2-33 does use
full
Ubiquitous? I've never seen one in my life. Ok, I'm
living in Europe.

up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate
position of the
release hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile
a trainer like a
ASK-21 could be in trouble if he misunderstands the
difference.
That's what instructors are for.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience
on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered
the need to
monitor airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has
always done that for
them.
That's what instructors are for.
Sandro, you are assuming US instructors have winch
experience. Some do,
many don't.

But surely only the ones with winch experience teach
winch launching? So it's not an issue? And surely
no-one goes from aerotow to winching without getting
some instruction?

You probably have spent much time in the United States 8^)

Sally W wrote:

But surely only the ones with winch experience teach
winch launching? So it's not an issue? And surely
no-one goes from aerotow to winching without getting
some instruction?

Correction:

You probably haven't spent much time in the United States 8^)

On Jun 26, 7:04 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Sally W wrote:
But surely only the ones with winch experience teach
winch launching? So it's not an issue? And surely
no-one goes from aerotow to winching without getting
some instruction?

Correction:

You probably haven't spent much time in the United States 8^)

If you are telling me that there are instructors teaching winch
launching in the US who don't know what they are doing, and people
trying it with no prior instruction, you are putting me off ever
flying in the US big time. Surely you folks over there have a better-
developed sense of self-preservation?

On Jun 26, 5:54 pm, Ian wrote:
On 26 Jun, 17:29, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

I spend a lot of time doing winch training. One of the big
misunderstandings I encounter is the assumption that all winch launches are
made with full-up elevator. That's why I reacted to the earlier post.

There is at least one large club in England which teaches this as the
right way to winch launch. They aren't worried about spins, because
their gliders are unspinnable and they aren't worried about cable
breaks because they chaneg the cables regularly. So that's all right
then.

Ian

Then if they are still doing that, I suspect they are not following
the latest BGA advice:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/doc...hlaunching.pdf

"A stall and possible spin/flick roll during rotation results from a
low airspeed combined with a
rapid rate of rotation. Accidents of this kind are rare but often
fatal."

"· Do not take off with the stick held back."

(but read the full PDF)

BTW there has been some debate about the full launch angle being 35
degrees, and we seemed to reach the conclusion that was the path the
CoG took, not the attitude of the glider.