VOR approach SMO

What you advocate is a violation of the FARs, but I guess that is the
way it is with Cessna Curators.

So, what is your minimums busting scheme when the weather is right at
minimums; i.e., 600 and 1?

karl gruber wrote:
Where are you digging up such erroneous thoughts?

With 800/3 you'll be way outside CULVE when you see the runway. That's the
difference between the pros that were landing without any fan fair and you,
without a clue.

Karl


"B" wrote in message ...

karl gruber wrote:

I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet.
Any jet will do that all day long.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

So, now you're past the runway and landing on the VOR shack.

It is 1.54 miles from CULVE to the beginning of the runway.

Man, you are an accident looking for a place to happen. There are
buildings over 800 feet high inside your minimums-busting 6.7 miles.

karl gruber wrote:

No, the VIS is 3. It doesn't matter where the VOR is. You can be at 680 6.7
miles out. When you are 3 miles from the AIRPORT, it will be in sight.

Karl

Do you have an instrument rating?

Help me understand how DME permits you to descent to 680 "far before CULVE."

karl gruber wrote:

Not with DME, you'll be at 680 far before CULVE.

Karl
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Jul 23, 1:18 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:

Where are you digging up such erroneous thoughts?

With 800/3 you'll be way outside CULVE when you see the runway.

No, with 800 foot ceiling you will be at 1120 when at CULVE, making it
hard to see the runway through the clouds.

-Robert

I am reading the plate. Apparently, you are not.

karl gruber wrote:

Not with DME, or do you think that a Gulfstream wouldn't have DME??

Read the plate!

Karl


"B" wrote in message ...

karl gruber wrote:


I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet.
Any jet will do that all day long.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

1120 at CULVE. 175 feet airport elevation. Difference 945 feet. Distance
from CULVE to runway 1.54 miles.

Roy Smith wrote:
You're not thick, the Curator is.

In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:


No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.


Maybe I'm just thick, but that's not how I read the chart.

After DARTS, you can descend to 2600. After BEVEY, you can descend to
1120. What happens after that depends on whether you can identify CULVE or
not. If you can identify CULVE, once you reach it, you can descend to 680.
Without CULVE, you have to stay at 1120 until you have the runway in sight.

Look at the plan view. There's a 863 tower at what looks like about 1/2
mile right of the FAC. I'm sure that's the controlling terrain for the
1120 MDA between BEVEY and CULVE.

Actually, it is several very tall building in Century City. At 680 feet
out there you die.

To identify CULVE, you need one of two things: either DME in the aircraft,
or the tower has to be open AND you have to be in radar contact. It
doesn't explicitly say so on the chart, but I assume the tower has a BRITE
scope in the cab with CULVE marked on it and will call it for you on tower
frequency.

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS. It's certainly the kind of approach you need to brief
ahead of time and know what you're going to need to do before you get there.

pgbnh wrote:

I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl.
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

The MDA is 1120 unless you have DME. If you have DME then the MDA is
680 once you pass CULVE. You cannot descend below 1120 prior to CULVE
even if you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact
approach, or a visual approach.

Having said that, when the weather is good, folks who know the airport
descend out of 1120 on the 4 degree PAPI. But, sometimes it is 600 and
1 around there.

karl gruber wrote:

Correct. That's why there's a little * next to the 1120*.

And, that little "*" (black ball number 1 on Jepp chart) means you can
descend to 680 ONCE PASSING CULVE.


Karl
"Doug Semler" wrote in message
oups.com...

On Jul 23, 5:28 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:

You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR
MINIMA*
680-1"
You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how
it's read.


So, iff you have DME and RADAR, the _1120_ in profile view changes to
_680_, right?

That is a *bit* confusing.

On Jul 23, 5:41 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
Note this is a VOR or GPS approach. Sorry if I just assumed that there would
be on-board EITHER a DME or an IFR certified GPS that would provide the
distance-measuring requirements of the DME/Radar minima. Pretty good chance
the jet in question had both. And maybe you understand this, but youir
reference to Radar implies that maybe you do not. The 'Radar' reference is
NOT referring to whether the plane is radar equipped, but rather whether
there is radar coverage from the ground. Which in fact should allow an
aircraft WITHOUT DME to descend to 680 (if receiving advisories from the
tower/approach)

No I completely understand what RADAR means. I know it means radar
contact from ATC. I mistyped an "and" instead of "or" in a previous
post about whether the different crossing restrictions were allowed if
and only if there was DME on board or radar guidance from ATC.

shrug It seems inconsistent with other uses of "/" (e.g. VOR/DME)
meaningthat both are required.

They can call BEVEY, too, workload permitting.

karl gruber wrote:

Exactly, you don't need DME or GPS. ATC can tell you where CULVE
is........with THEIR Radar.

Right, dive to 1120 and drive to CULVE, then dive to 680.

karl gruber wrote:

Once inside BEVEY you're good for 680. There is no glideslope and it's "Dive
and Drive." That's why the pros make it in with no trouble, they can read
charts.

Karl