Mustang Collision Oshkosh

Big John wrote:
I asked MX a series of technical questions and he let them slide.
Guess he is one of the trolls active here ( I'll put him on the
list.



Mx is indeed THE troll here, but I think you were/are talking to an imposter
Mx who has been making many bogus trolls in the name of the troll on several
threads, and this one wants to indulge in bull**** games over the death of a
pilot! Original Mx is a sophmoric jerk, but the imposter is an insensitive
asshole. Who ever it is should have the fleas of a thousand camels infest
his crotch, followed up with fireants.

Dudley and anyone else,
I was listening with my scanner and heard the P-51A call "Precious Metal,
one mile final", but no further radio calls. I glanced to the south and saw
the P-51A, but not the D, still a good ways out. I then focused on watching
the Sea Fury and Tigercat rolling out until I heard the crowd gasp at which
point I looked south and saw the P-51A pitch up and roll inverted and the
P-51D pitch over on its nose. From the video it seems to me that they
weren't necessarily landing as a section or in formation, that it's
possible that the P-51D cut into the pattern and Beck in the P-51A never
saw the P-51D until too late. The video begins showing the P-51A higher and
hotter and well behind the D, and it seems to me that right at the start of
the video there was pretty good separation between the two which the P-51A
closed quickly. Is it possible in your experience and knowing the
visibility over the nose of a Mustang that Beck in the P-51A didn't see the
P-51D, and never knew he was there until too late, and that Odegaard maybe
turned in front of him in the pattern? I'd love to see a video showing
them from further out in the approach, but I'm interested in your opinion.
Scott Wilson

I believe I made it clear in an earlier post in this thread that close
in staggered section landings with co-speed touchdowns are fairly common
in nose wheel aircraft like the F15. It's only in tail wheel fighters
like the Mustang where close in section landings are an issue.
Dudley Henriques

Bush wrote:
We do this daily at FMH in F-15's.

Have a great one!

Bush

"They'll let anyone fly 'em" John Travolta

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:47:20 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


Dudley Henriques wrote:

The one thing you don't want to lose sight of with all this John is that
the recommendation considered standard for civilians flying Mustangs as
that advice would relate to a section landing gives MUCH more
longitudinal separation room required between the landing P51's....as
much as 3000 feet actually then was the case at Oshkosh. Even with a
high degree of experience, a civilian landing a P51 would be well
advised by any of the powers that be, not to mention myself, to adhere
to this long separation when landing 2 P51's out of a formation pattern.
Usually this would be done from a 360 overhead with spacing on the pitch
out to allow for this 3000 foot minimum longitudinal separation on the
active runway.

Dudley Henriques
..addendum;

I would only add to this that as far as I am aware, section landings as
the military has used them in the past, with 2 aircraft landing
staggered on each side of the runway with CLOSE IN SPACING, is NOT...and
I repeat...NOT a recommended procedure by any standard I know of in
present use by associations and organizations dealing with formation
flight safety with direct relationship to the P51 Mustang.
Dudley Henriques

wrote:
Dudley and anyone else,
I was listening with my scanner and heard the P-51A call "Precious Metal,
one mile final", but no further radio calls. I glanced to the south and saw
the P-51A, but not the D, still a good ways out. I then focused on watching
the Sea Fury and Tigercat rolling out until I heard the crowd gasp at which
point I looked south and saw the P-51A pitch up and roll inverted and the
P-51D pitch over on its nose. From the video it seems to me that they
weren't necessarily landing as a section or in formation, that it's
possible that the P-51D cut into the pattern and Beck in the P-51A never
saw the P-51D until too late. The video begins showing the P-51A higher and
hotter and well behind the D, and it seems to me that right at the start of
the video there was pretty good separation between the two which the P-51A
closed quickly. Is it possible in your experience and knowing the
visibility over the nose of a Mustang that Beck in the P-51A didn't see the
P-51D, and never knew he was there until too late, and that Odegaard maybe
turned in front of him in the pattern? I'd love to see a video showing
them from further out in the approach, but I'm interested in your opinion.
Scott Wilson

This is of course a possibility that the investigation team will have
verified or discounted by now from the ATC interviews. If the D was an
incursion I'd have looked for something having been released to that
effect by now....but I could be wrong.
My gut feeling is that they were just too close and had overtake.
To answer your question about not seeing the D; the Mustang with flaps
down has fairly good runway visuals over the nose on final. I would
guess that Beck had the D visually until he flared.
Dudley Henriques

We do this daily at FMH in F-15's.

Have a great one!

Bush

"They'll let anyone fly 'em" John Travolta

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:47:20 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:



Dudley Henriques wrote:

The one thing you don't want to lose sight of with all this John is that
the recommendation considered standard for civilians flying Mustangs as
that advice would relate to a section landing gives MUCH more
longitudinal separation room required between the landing P51's....as
much as 3000 feet actually then was the case at Oshkosh. Even with a
high degree of experience, a civilian landing a P51 would be well
advised by any of the powers that be, not to mention myself, to adhere
to this long separation when landing 2 P51's out of a formation pattern.
Usually this would be done from a 360 overhead with spacing on the pitch
out to allow for this 3000 foot minimum longitudinal separation on the
active runway.

Dudley Henriques

..addendum;

I would only add to this that as far as I am aware, section landings as
the military has used them in the past, with 2 aircraft landing
staggered on each side of the runway with CLOSE IN SPACING, is NOT...and
I repeat...NOT a recommended procedure by any standard I know of in
present use by associations and organizations dealing with formation
flight safety with direct relationship to the P51 Mustang.
Dudley Henriques

Bush wrote:

We do this daily at FMH in F-15's.

I flew an F-15 yesterday. It's fun, although the g-forces really do wear
you out after awhile. I had a flameout, could not get my engines
restarted, and had to do a deadstick landing onto a 1500 ft grass strip
runway from 50 miles away. My seat was really wet after that maneuver.

Big John wrote:
Mxsmanic

Where did you fly the 51? What AAC organization and theater?

The real mxsmanic didn't make that post. Check the headers and you see:

Organization: Trolls, Inc.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 03:26:56 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote:

The real mxsmanic didn't make that post. Check the headers and you see:

Organization: Trolls, Inc.

So, Anthony now believes in truth in advertising? snicker

Trolls trolling for trolls?

I'm glad I killfiled him soon after he showed up in this group...

Mxsmanic wrote:
[ Elided in the name of good taste. ]

Organization: Trolls, Inc.

You do realize that all you are accomplishing is to prove many of
mxsmanic's detractors are infantile and have thin skins?

On Jul 27, 6:41 pm, "Gattman" wrote:
http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5fd653-6d41-46...

OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture.
The FAA says the accident with the two P-51 Mustangs happened at shortly
after 3pm, after the planes finished a performance at the Experimental
Aircraft Association's show.

Investigators with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are
investigating.

The last fatal crash at EAA Airventure happened last year on July 23. A
Washington state couple was killed when their single engine, home-built
plane crashed on approach at Whittman Regional Airport.

I was a fighter pilot for the Air Force for several years and hated
formation landings more than anything else I ever did. No room for
error.

Danny Deger