Plating 4130 parts

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
On Aug 8, 5:51 am, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fortunat1 wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in
hlink.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:

I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet engine
rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated. My
understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium and
nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a coating of
nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to do this for the
obvious reasons until I find out what the story is...
Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".

Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I asked...

I repeat,

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement"

to counteract it...


And I repeat that the link he provided is to a process that is
not plating.

--

FF

All right now.

I'm not trying to be huffy, but clicking on a link is not exactly
my idea of proper research of a critical detail.

Nor is accepting any wisdom posted here without further checking...

First off, ask the plating guys about embrittlement.
If they know what's what, then what's the problem?
And it thy don't, then don't go there!!!

Secondly, Google is, and always will be, your friend.


Ok?

Richard

On Aug 8, 7:07 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

On Aug 8, 5:51 am, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fortunat1 wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in
hlink.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:

I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet engine
rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated. My
understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium and
nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a coating of
nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to do this for the
obvious reasons until I find out what the story is...
Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".

Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I asked...

I repeat,

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement"

to counteract it...

And I repeat that the link he provided is to a process that is
not plating.

....

All right now.

I'm not trying to be huffy, but clicking on a link is not exactly
my idea of proper research of a critical detail.

Indeed. However OP wrote:

" Actually, I was mistaken about the nickel. This is the actual
process;
http://www.sermatech.com/documents/sts40_sermetel1207.pdf"

Now, if that IS the actual process, then he was mistaken about
the cadmium as well as the nickel. If that is the process the
shop has suggested for his parts, then no information about
cadmium plating will be relevant because they aren't going
to cad plate his parts.

That would be like researching butyrate dope to prepare to paint
your plane with latex house paint.


Nor is accepting any wisdom posted here without further checking...

First off, ask the plating guys about embrittlement.

I disagree. First of all, he needs to understand what the
shop will to do to his parts. Asking the guys about
hydrogen embrittlement makes no sense if they use
sermetel coating. And if they do, they no doubt can
say that hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem, which
could leave OP dangerously confused if he still thinks
that semetel coating is cadmium plating.

If they know what's what, then what's the problem?

The problem would appear to be that _OP_ doesn't
know what the shop does. Quite frankly, it
sounds like a paint shop, not a plating shop.
It may be that they don't do ANY plating at all.

And it thy don't, then don't go there!!!

But maybe they are a very good paint shop, eh?


Secondly, Google is, and always will be, your friend.

Ok?


Yes. Google OP's original articles.

--

FF

cavelamb himself wrote:
Fortunat1 wrote:
cavelamb himself wrote in
nk.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:


I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet engine
rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated. My
understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium and
nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a coating of
nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to do this for the
obvious reasons until I find out what the story is... Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".




Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I asked, but a
lot of people seem to be doing this to things like wing attachment
brackets all the same. Seems strange that AN hardware and such can be
plated when such small pieces are taking such high loads..

I repeat,

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement"

to counteract it...

Chrome plating is ok as long as the proper post plating baking process
for hydrogen removal is done. I would not have it done by a commercial
plater.

John

Fred the Red Shirt wrote in
oups.com:

On Aug 8, 7:07 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

On Aug 8, 5:51 am, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fortunat1 wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in
hlink.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:

I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet
engine rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated. My
understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium and
nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a coating
of nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to do this
for the obvious reasons until I find out what the story is...
Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".

Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I asked...

I repeat,

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement"

to counteract it...

And I repeat that the link he provided is to a process that is
not plating.

...

All right now.

I'm not trying to be huffy, but clicking on a link is not exactly
my idea of proper research of a critical detail.

Indeed. However OP wrote:

" Actually, I was mistaken about the nickel. This is the actual
process;
http://www.sermatech.com/documents/sts40_sermetel1207.pdf"

Now, if that IS the actual process, then he was mistaken about
the cadmium as well as the nickel. If that is the process the
shop has suggested for his parts, then no information about
cadmium plating will be relevant because they aren't going
to cad plate his parts.

That would be like researching butyrate dope to prepare to paint
your plane with latex house paint.


Nor is accepting any wisdom posted here without further checking...

First off, ask the plating guys about embrittlement.

I disagree. First of all, he needs to understand what the
shop will to do to his parts. Asking the guys about
hydrogen embrittlement makes no sense if they use
sermetel coating. And if they do, they no doubt can
say that hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem, which
could leave OP dangerously confused if he still thinks
that semetel coating is cadmium plating.

If they know what's what, then what's the problem?

The problem would appear to be that _OP_ doesn't
know what the shop does. Quite frankly, it
sounds like a paint shop, not a plating shop.
It may be that they don't do ANY plating at all.

And it thy don't, then don't go there!!!

But maybe they are a very good paint shop, eh?

Right, Sorry for the confusion guys. Here's the whole story with this
question.

Plan A was to paint the parts. We're talking 4130 parts in a wood wing.
Brackets, compression tubes, etc. I had planned to paint them, but my
partner in the project has someone working in a jet engine rebuild shop
that did Cad plating. Just as I posted the first part of the question
about Cad plating, I got a note from my friend telling me that due to
environmental reasons, they've dropped the cad process and are now doing
this sermetal coating instead. I only got this info and the link as I
was ready to walk out the door for a week away from home and only
glanced at it, but I thought I'd throw it in here anyway.
Back to the cad question for a just a minute, then.
I had seen a good few wood wing airplanes with cad plated parts over the
years, but the original info I got was that this shop did it a bit
different, and I suspected the methods used might be OK for the bits
they were plating for engines but maybe not so good for an old
biplane...
In any case, they've dropped the plating in favor of this coating and
i'm thinking since it's similar to powder coating in a lot of ways and
therefore may have the same drawbacks, I'm going to give it a miss and
just use standard epoxy paint instead..

On Aug 8, 9:44 am, wrote:
On Aug 8, 12:35 am, wrote:





On Aug 7, 11:33 pm, Fortunat1 wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote link.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:

I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet engine
rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated. My
understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium and
nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a coating of
nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to do this for the
obvious reasons until I find out what the story is...
Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".

Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I asked, but a lot
of people seem to be doing this to things like wing attachment brackets all
the same. Seems strange that AN hardware and such can be plated when such
small pieces are taking such high loads..

Standard AN bolts are cadmium plated, and the bolts are usually made
from 8740 alloy (although they can be made from 4130) that is heat
treated to a minimum strength of 125 Ksi. So I would think that you
can have them cad plated if you use the proper process.

I thought AN bolts were 2330 nickel steel. That's what the
textbooks say. Maybe NAS bolts are 8740?

Dan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Going from memory of the last time I read the procurement spec, AN
bolts presently can be made from either 8740, 4130, or 4140 alloy. The
Aircraft Spruce catalogue states this as well where it shows AN bolts.
4037 alloy is an old one and has been superceeded, however I'm sure
you would find many of them on old aircraft. 8740 is usually used
because it heat treats easier than 4140 or especially 4130 alloy and
is therefore cheaper to manufacture, although all are suitable as long
as they meet spec.
There are much better alloys of course, but for relatively low
strength 125 ksi bolts, they are fine. Most large aircraft
manufacturers use 160 ksi minimum bolts for all structural
applications except where absolutely necessary, because 160 ksi bolts
are about as cheap as AN bolts.

Regards,
Bud

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 06:56:29 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:



i'm thinking since it's similar to powder coating in a lot of ways and
therefore may have the same drawbacks, I'm going to give it a miss and
just use standard epoxy paint instead..



whatever process you use get a tube of Duralac and smear the face of
the metal abutting the wood with duralac, then push them into position
and bolt. this is a jointing compound designed to prevent corrosion
between dissimilar materials.
it is used in aviation and it works.

the rest of what you are doing is quite ok.

Stealth Pilot

Stealth Pilot wrote in
:

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 06:56:29 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:



i'm thinking since it's similar to powder coating in a lot of ways and
therefore may have the same drawbacks, I'm going to give it a miss and
just use standard epoxy paint instead..



whatever process you use get a tube of Duralac and smear the face of
the metal abutting the wood with duralac, then push them into position
and bolt. this is a jointing compound designed to prevent corrosion
between dissimilar materials.
it is used in aviation and it works.

the rest of what you are doing is quite ok.


Thanks. I'll do that! Would you put a bit on the bolts as well?

Fortunat1 wrote:
Fred the Red Shirt wrote in
oups.com:


On Aug 8, 7:07 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:


On Aug 8, 5:51 am, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fortunat1 wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in
arthlink.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:

I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet
engine rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated. My
understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium and
nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a coating
of nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to do this
for the obvious reasons until I find out what the story is...
Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".

Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I asked...

I repeat,

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement"

to counteract it...

And I repeat that the link he provided is to a process that is
not plating.

...

All right now.

I'm not trying to be huffy, but clicking on a link is not exactly
my idea of proper research of a critical detail.

Indeed. However OP wrote:

" Actually, I was mistaken about the nickel. This is the actual
process;
http://www.sermatech.com/documents/sts40_sermetel1207.pdf"

Now, if that IS the actual process, then he was mistaken about
the cadmium as well as the nickel. If that is the process the
shop has suggested for his parts, then no information about
cadmium plating will be relevant because they aren't going
to cad plate his parts.

That would be like researching butyrate dope to prepare to paint
your plane with latex house paint.


Nor is accepting any wisdom posted here without further checking...

First off, ask the plating guys about embrittlement.

I disagree. First of all, he needs to understand what the
shop will to do to his parts. Asking the guys about
hydrogen embrittlement makes no sense if they use
sermetel coating. And if they do, they no doubt can
say that hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem, which
could leave OP dangerously confused if he still thinks
that semetel coating is cadmium plating.


If they know what's what, then what's the problem?

The problem would appear to be that _OP_ doesn't
know what the shop does. Quite frankly, it
sounds like a paint shop, not a plating shop.
It may be that they don't do ANY plating at all.


And it thy don't, then don't go there!!!

But maybe they are a very good paint shop, eh?


Right, Sorry for the confusion guys. Here's the whole story with this
question.

Plan A was to paint the parts. We're talking 4130 parts in a wood wing.
Brackets, compression tubes, etc. I had planned to paint them, but my
partner in the project has someone working in a jet engine rebuild shop
that did Cad plating. Just as I posted the first part of the question
about Cad plating, I got a note from my friend telling me that due to
environmental reasons, they've dropped the cad process and are now doing
this sermetal coating instead. I only got this info and the link as I
was ready to walk out the door for a week away from home and only
glanced at it, but I thought I'd throw it in here anyway.
Back to the cad question for a just a minute, then.
I had seen a good few wood wing airplanes with cad plated parts over the
years, but the original info I got was that this shop did it a bit
different, and I suspected the methods used might be OK for the bits
they were plating for engines but maybe not so good for an old
biplane...
In any case, they've dropped the plating in favor of this coating and
i'm thinking since it's similar to powder coating in a lot of ways and
therefore may have the same drawbacks, I'm going to give it a miss and
just use standard epoxy paint instead..




If I may make a suggestion...

I've used, and strongly recommend, Epi-Bond or Randoplate for priming
metal parts.

Epoxy paint, by itself, will not be reliable over the years.

Richard

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:08:33 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote in
:

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 06:56:29 +0000 (UTC), Fortunat1 wrote:



i'm thinking since it's similar to powder coating in a lot of ways and
therefore may have the same drawbacks, I'm going to give it a miss and
just use standard epoxy paint instead..



whatever process you use get a tube of Duralac and smear the face of
the metal abutting the wood with duralac, then push them into position
and bolt. this is a jointing compound designed to prevent corrosion
between dissimilar materials.
it is used in aviation and it works.

the rest of what you are doing is quite ok.


Thanks. I'll do that! Would you put a bit on the bolts as well?


certainly. dip any rivets you use in it as well. smear it in a
continuous coating between dissimilar materials and let it squish out
as you nut up the fasteners. wipe off the excess. it dries/cures to
something like a rubbery coating.

works metal(steel etc) to aluminium as well.

Stealth Pilot

cavelamb himself wrote in
news:5LIui.10913$dD3.3089@trnddc07:

Fortunat1 wrote:
Fred the Red Shirt wrote in
oups.com:


On Aug 8, 7:07 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:


On Aug 8, 5:51 am, cavelamb himself wrote:

Fortunat1 wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in
. earthlink.net:

Fortunat1 wrote:

I have access to a plating facility (aviation, but it's a jet
engine rebuild shop) where I can get my wing fittings plated.
My understanding is that 4130 cad plating is just that, cadmium
and nothing else, but this shop does it's cad plating by a
coating of nickel first and then cad plating.. I'm reluctant to
do this for the obvious reasons until I find out what the story
is... Anyone know?

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement".

Yeah, I was aware of hydrogen embritlement which is why I
asked...

I repeat,

You might want to research "Hydrogen embrittlement"

to counteract it...

And I repeat that the link he provided is to a process that is
not plating.

...

All right now.

I'm not trying to be huffy, but clicking on a link is not exactly
my idea of proper research of a critical detail.

Indeed. However OP wrote:

" Actually, I was mistaken about the nickel. This is the actual
process;
http://www.sermatech.com/documents/sts40_sermetel1207.pdf"

Now, if that IS the actual process, then he was mistaken about
the cadmium as well as the nickel. If that is the process the
shop has suggested for his parts, then no information about
cadmium plating will be relevant because they aren't going
to cad plate his parts.

That would be like researching butyrate dope to prepare to paint
your plane with latex house paint.


Nor is accepting any wisdom posted here without further checking...

First off, ask the plating guys about embrittlement.

I disagree. First of all, he needs to understand what the
shop will to do to his parts. Asking the guys about
hydrogen embrittlement makes no sense if they use
sermetel coating. And if they do, they no doubt can
say that hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem, which
could leave OP dangerously confused if he still thinks
that semetel coating is cadmium plating.


If they know what's what, then what's the problem?

The problem would appear to be that _OP_ doesn't
know what the shop does. Quite frankly, it
sounds like a paint shop, not a plating shop.
It may be that they don't do ANY plating at all.


And it thy don't, then don't go there!!!

But maybe they are a very good paint shop, eh?


Right, Sorry for the confusion guys. Here's the whole story with this
question.

Plan A was to paint the parts. We're talking 4130 parts in a wood
wing. Brackets, compression tubes, etc. I had planned to paint them,
but my partner in the project has someone working in a jet engine
rebuild shop that did Cad plating. Just as I posted the first part of
the question about Cad plating, I got a note from my friend telling
me that due to environmental reasons, they've dropped the cad process
and are now doing this sermetal coating instead. I only got this info
and the link as I was ready to walk out the door for a week away from
home and only glanced at it, but I thought I'd throw it in here
anyway. Back to the cad question for a just a minute, then.
I had seen a good few wood wing airplanes with cad plated parts over
the years, but the original info I got was that this shop did it a
bit different, and I suspected the methods used might be OK for the
bits they were plating for engines but maybe not so good for an old
biplane...
In any case, they've dropped the plating in favor of this coating and
i'm thinking since it's similar to powder coating in a lot of ways
and therefore may have the same drawbacks, I'm going to give it a
miss and just use standard epoxy paint instead..




If I may make a suggestion...

I've used, and strongly recommend, Epi-Bond or Randoplate for priming
metal parts.

Epoxy paint, by itself, will not be reliable over the years.


OK. well, the plan was for an etch primer, epoxy primer then gloss
epoxy. It's all internal wing parts, the fuse tubing and such...