Cost of Cockpit Instruments

Le Chaud Lapin wrote:


So a different approach might be to stop making finished systems and
instead focus on components. Manufacturers would make controls in
sensors in wide variety, all conforming to USB standard. A (cheap)
commodity PC would be able to control everything. And (licensed)
software developers could do their part.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

That is where your problem is. It all has to be certified as a unit not as
individual components. Like it or not it isn't going to change with anything
short of an armed revolution.

Let me give you an example of FAA thinking.

I'm building and airplane, you can see it at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR.

When I'm done because I'm using a non certified prop and engine combination
I have to test fly it for 40 hours for phase one testing. If I was using an
engine and prop combination that had ever been paired up in a certified
aircraft I would only need to phase one test for 25 hours. Now here's the
kicker. Just because that certified engine and prop were mounted and flown
in an experimental they can never be considered certified again.

Another good example is the IFR GPS certification requirement even in an
experimental. I can install every single piece of electronics in my plane
and if one of those pieces happen to be a Nav/Com with Glide Slope I can fly
it IFR. For that matter I could even build the Nav/Com myself and the FAA
wouldn't care. (yes the FCC would but that is beside the point) But for a
GPS to be used IFR it has to meet the TSO requirements.

That Dynon unit you mentioned is what is going in my plane but even it can't
go into a certified aircraft without a metric butt load of paperwork.

I think deep down you know what the reasons for the cost are but if you
don't I'll tell you.

Volume: There really isn't that big a market.
Certification: Those Dell laptops would never pass the vibration tests
alone.
LIABILITY

"Bob Noel" wrote

What are the failure modes of these components? How will failures
and errors be detected and handled? How will component changes
be handled? How much will it cost to repeat the appropriate analyses
when various vendors roll part numbers? How will you determine that
the part hasn't changed when the vendor didn't change the part number?
(Don't laugh, I've seen an LRU no longer work in a particular aircraft
when
a chipset vendor changed a production process which ever so slightly
changed functionality but the vendor didn't change the part number).

And do you have any concept of what it would take to put a commodity
OS like windows into a safety-critical application?
All this and more. .

How about the displays necessary to be bright enough for easy viewing in
very bright situations? They cost twice as much alone, as the computers in
the price range he is suggesting on using for running the applications.

How about the hard drives? They need to be able to handle high altitudes
without (what is the proper term, here? ) hard drive platter crashes? (the
readers above the platter scraping the platters, instead of floating on a
layer of air slightly above the platters)
--
Jim in NC

"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote

When I see this device, I see

1. My two Dell computers with 17" monitors

You are dreaming, and talking out of your but, while doing so.

Your Dells are not bright enough to be direct sunlight readable, which an
airplane display must be.

Your Dell does not have hard drives capable of operating above 12,000 feet.
(or perhaps much lower)

Oh, and that software you mentioned is expensive.

How about overhead to make all of this stuff, for a market of perhaps 2% of
your Dells. Same with the designing of the software.

How about profit for the investors? They will need some, spreading the cost
over not too many units.

I wish the stuff were not so expensive. Wishing will not make it so.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


How about overhead to make all of this stuff, for a market of perhaps
2% of your Dells. Same with the designing of the software.


2%, surly you jest. Try 0.02%

On Sep 19, 3:17 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:
Morgans wrote:

How about overhead to make all of this stuff, for a market of perhaps
2% of your Dells. Same with the designing of the software.

2%, surly you jest. Try 0.02%

Actually, most laptop models sell around 10 million units a month, and
have a lifecycle of 2 years. That is a total of 240,000,000 units.

Most EFIS systems sell maybe 1000 to 2000 copies. For grins lets say
one is REALLY successful and sells 10,000 units.

10,000 divided by 240,000,000 is 0.004%

The market is absolutely TINY compared to consumer electronics.

That is the number 1 reason why everything is so expensive. That's
why even experimental equipment is much more expensive than consumer
electronics.

Number 2 is the cost of certification.

Number 3 is liability insurance.

In article .com,
Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

Continuing with this example, let's suppose I take my $700 instead and
buy a standard basic PC from Dell. The Inspiron 531S is selling for
$529US:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...en&oc=DDCWGC2&
s=dhs.
Note that it comes with 17inch, LCD color monitor, $160GB hard drive,
"in-flight movie viewing system" (DVD drive and Windows Media
Player). I would want two of these machines in my airplane, so let's
say cost is $1058.

problem: the hard drive won't survive high altitude flying. Do you want
your computer to die just because you fly at 13000'?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote

Now here's the kicker. Just because that certified engine and prop were
mounted and flown in an experimental they can never be considered
certified again.

That is not consistant with what I have read.

If you keep the original data plate on the engine, and do all repair work
and follow all of the directives for the engine, and the work is done by an
A&P, then what you mount it in is not important. When you take it out, if
all work (engine maintenance and rebuilds) as been done up to FAA standards
by or supervised by an A&P, you can indeed put the engine back into a
certified plane. AS far as the prop goes, I am not up with the requirements
on them, but I "believe" the same standards apply for it.
--
Jim in NC

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Morgans wrote:


How about overhead to make all of this stuff, for a market of perhaps
2% of your Dells. Same with the designing of the software.


2%, surly you jest. Try 0.02%

chuckle Yep, that is probably more like it.
--
Jim in NC

On Sep 19, 1:08 pm, Jim Stewart wrote:
Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
Hi All,

I am a student for my private license, and during my last ground
school session, I was having discussion about how glass cockpits might
be made cheaper by using commoditized components. For example, some
GPS units cost $1000's US, but a friend of mine help found a company
that made the most advanced GPS receivers around, and those devices,
including package, barely cost $400. Simpler receives are a lot
cheaper, some as low as $50US (http://electronics.pricegrabber.com/gps-
receivers/p/2003/form_keyword=usb+gps/rd=1) I'm not sure what the
differences are in receivers, but I would imagine that a "good" GPS
unit could be had for say, $500, in which case, that, coupled with a
conventional PC and software, should be able to do anything that the
fancier (Garmin, etc) units can do. Most importantly, that one PC
could work for many instruments simultaneously, and cost difference
should be huge . [Yes, I know, reliability, FAA
certification...yada...]

I think we are already close to your request.

A Lowrance 2000c gives you terrain, airspace,
VFR chart, airports and frequencies in a very
nice little package for about 700 USD on discount.

These days, a GPS that gives you lat/long, ground
speed and heading is trivial. I can't imagine
the amount of work that must go into all the other
details of a nice aviation GPS. Plus the warm
feeling of having a Jep database in the unit.

What shocked me was the purported cost of instruments compared to what
they could cost. A USB pressure sensor should not cost more than
$500, in my opinion. I guessed that the VSI might cost a few hundred
dollars US as a conservative estimate. My instructor and another
student stated that the cost is more like in the $1000's for a typical
instrument. Is this true? It's not that I doubt my instructor or my
fellow student. I just want to get an idea of how much these various
devices cost.
For a base reference, I would consider the standard instruments found
in Cessna 172.

Checkhttp://www.dynonavionics.com

Beautiful equipment at a reasonable cost.



Yes it is a very economical alternative, but not without some
compromises. Dynon needs airspeed as an input to stabilize its
reference systems. Other systems such as Blue Mountain use GPS as one
of the inputs. The ones that are truly inertial (ie not requiring any
inputs) are not in the same price range. So when comparing to the old
fashioned spinning gyros, one has to keep these differences in mind.

On Sep 19, 5:01 pm, wrote:

Actually, most laptop models sell around 10 million units a month, and
have a lifecycle of 2 years. That is a total of 240,000,000 units.

Most EFIS systems sell maybe 1000 to 2000 copies. For grins lets say
one is REALLY successful and sells 10,000 units.

10,000 divided by 240,000,000 is 0.004%

The market is absolutely TINY compared to consumer electronics.

That is the number 1 reason why everything is so expensive. That's
why even experimental equipment is much more expensive than consumer
electronics.

Now *this* makes sense. This is what I suspected all along.

The problem is a catch 22. The planes are expensive because the
volume is relatively low. The volume is relatively low (partially)
because the planes are expensive.

I don't know how much the cost of an airplane is related to sensors,
controls, and monitoring equipment, but as an electrical/software
engineer, it's very difficult to spend $3000 for something you know
you could make for $150.

Number 2 is the cost of certification.

Number 3 is liability insurance.

I think if manufacturers where to build airplanes cheap (in cost),
Problems 2 and 3 will begin to fix themselves.

-Le Chaud Lapin-