Expanded World Class

Andreas Maurer wrote:
Did anyone ever ask SH or LS to publish the blueprints of their
out-of-production Discus and LS-4?

RS no longer exists, so the LS4 molds are again being used to produce
gliders. Given the actual difference in performance, do you really
imagine that SH would be willing to risk potential market share to
another company selling "World Class" Discus clones at 50% (or even 75%)
of the cost of a Discus 2?

Marc

Andreas Maurer wrote:


Well.... let me say it that way: No student pilot in my club would
volunteer to fly a glider with less performance than out DG-300s...



You say that like it's a good thing.


Jack

On Oct 4, 1:07 pm, toad wrote:


People keep comparing to sailboat one design racing, but there is a
big difference between sailing a Sunfish in weak conditions and flying
a PW5 in weak conditions, the PW5 lands out and the Sunfish does NOT
sink. Avoiding landing out in weak conditions is why a minimum of
performance is needed.

The only way I can support the "World class" is to buy one myself or
with a club. But before I did this, the glider has to have enough
performance that I would have fun. So I express what I think should
be changed to allow this to happen. This doesn't mean that I am
threatened, but I feel the concept has not been well executed.

Todd Smith
Grob 102
3S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Another issue I see in the comparison between sailboat racing and
gliding is cost. We're talking about vastly different price points.

Here's the problem. For the same price as a PW-5, I can buy an
LS-3. This cost is somewhere just north of $25K, with an LS-3 maybe
a shade lower than the PW-5. I don't think anyone would argue
that the LS-3 has significantly better performance, not just at Max L/
D but more importantly at 60kts and above. At 70kts, in fact, the
LS-3 has more or less double the L/D of the PW-5. In gliding,
that's a BIG difference.

We can look at single-handed dinghy sailboats as a comparison. We're
looking at a used Laser at anywhere from maybe $1000 for a ratty one
with a lot of time on it to maybe $4,000 for a newer one in cherry
condition. At the same time, a ratty Sunfish can be had for
probably $300 while a cherry might fetch $1000. To make a fair
comparison, let's assume both boats in similar age and condition; say
10 years old and solid mechanical shape with hull scratches and
cosmetically poor deck. We'll put the Sunfish at $500 and the Laser
at $1500. There's no doubt that the Laser is a "better" boat for
reasonably accomplished sailors. It's harder to sail (almost killed
myself in one once) than the Sunfish but it handles better and can go
a bit faster, and the price seems to reflect that. However, even
though it's better, as Todd noted you can still sail on the same
course with the Sunfish and finish 10 times out of 10.

Let's say that Sunfish was the only recognized one design class in
dinghy sailing. I could buy one for $500 and race in Sunfish
regattas to my heart's content. I might also buy a Laser for fun.
The combined cost is less than a used Cobra trailer.

Cutting to the point, the economics don't favor the PW-5. If the
PW-5 was maybe $10K, it might have been a big seller. But, at $25K
plus it's not in the running, especially with Club Class offering very
competitive racing for even less money.

P3

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:47:24 -0500, J a c k
wrote:

You say that like it's a good thing.

It is.
By the way:
No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
costs included.
Lots of you people, too.


Bye
Andreas

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:47:24 -0500, J a c k
wrote:

You say that like it's a good thing.

It is.
By the way:
No member in my club pays more than 600$ per year for gliding, all
costs included.
Lots of young people, too.

Bye
Andreas



Edit: spelling
Bye
Andreas

Roger Hurley wrote:

So, be constructive, iron out the spec, and maybe there
will be interest in designing the glider, and in producing
it quickly enough, in enough places, and in sufficient
quantity to make the one-design concept fly again.
Who knows, maybe more than one one-design will emerge
- just like dinghy racing. And that would be cool.

Do people buy a dinghy just to go sailing most of the time, and race
only once or twice a year? Or are they bought primarily for racing? If
it's the later, we may not learn anything by comparing one design racers
in gliders and sailboats, because most people don't/won't buy a glider
for just racing.

If people are buying gliders mostly for non-contest flying, a new,
"low-cost", one design racer will never be able to compete in value with
the used market. It will either be "priced right" but have lower
performance, or "perform right" and cost a lot more. I think the flaw in
the one-design concept is thinking a lot pilots like the concept enough
to actually make any sacrifice in cost or performance to get one.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Generally, it seems that L/D around 38 would be enough
- that would be better than an old Std Cirrus, not
quite as good as a Discus A, but close to the LS4.
Can we agree on that?


No. As Papa3 pointed out in another post *best* glide is pretty
meaningless. It's the L/D at 70 or 80 knots that counts. That's why you
pay $40,000 for a used 40/1 glider when another 40/1 glider, in similar
condition, sells for $26,000.

Tony V.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Do people buy a dinghy just to go sailing most of the time,
and race
only once or twice a year? Or are they bought primarily for
racing? If
it's the later, we may not learn anything by comparing one
design racers
in gliders and sailboats, because most people don't/won't buy
a glider
for just racing.

Speaking as one who raced/sailed one design small sailboats for
several
decades (Lightnings, Flying Juniors, two classes of scows), I
can tell you it is 95% racing. This my own experience and from
observing others.

If people are buying gliders mostly for non-contest flying, a
new,
"low-cost", one design racer will never be able to compete in
value with
the used market. It will either be "priced right" but have
lower
performance, or "perform right" and cost a lot more. I think
the flaw in
the one-design concept is thinking a lot pilots like the
concept enough
to actually make any sacrifice in cost or performance to get
one.

Excellent point. The sailboat analogy breaks down.

Regards,
Doug


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On 6 Oct, 23:44, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Do people buy a dinghy just to go sailing most of the time, and race
only once or twice a year? Or are they bought primarily for racing? If
it's the later, we may not learn anything by comparing one design racers
in gliders and sailboats, because most people don't/won't buy a glider
for just racing.

My perception of the dinghy racing folk (I'm strictly a cruising
sailor) is that it's almost all racing - not least because there are
generally races every weekend throughout the season. It's probably
also important that most sailing clubs concentrate on a particular
class (or two). To get the equivalent in gliding would require a club
to have ten or twenty PW-5's on the club/PO fleet, with competitions
every Saturday and Sunday throughout the local soaring season.

I think the flaw in
the one-design concept is thinking a lot pilots like the concept enough
to actually make any sacrifice in cost or performance to get one.

The good thing about the World Class competition was in stimulating
interest in smaller, less complicated gliders once again. The bad
thing was thinking that top-notch competition pilots would want to
give up their Venti / Nimbi / ASWs /ASHs to fly them. I don't expect
there would be any difficulty in getting entrants for a World Class
competition if some nice sponsor provided a fleet of identical Discus
2's ...

Ian

On Oct 6, 11:44 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger Hurley wrote:
So, be constructive, iron out the spec, and maybe there
will be interest in designing the glider, and in producing
it quickly enough, in enough places, and in sufficient
quantity to make the one-design concept fly again.
Who knows, maybe more than one one-design will emerge
- just like dinghy racing. And that would be cool.

Do people buy a dinghy just to go sailing most of the time, and race
only once or twice a year? Or are they bought primarily for racing? If
it's the later, we may not learn anything by comparing one design racers
in gliders and sailboats, because most people don't/won't buy a glider
for just racing.

It varies. There is no single pattern in dinghy sailing. I brought
mine to go dinghy racing - it's the only way to make sailing on a tiny
puddle interesting. However a friend who races the same class also
has another different one-design dinghy he uses to potter around with
his son. He & I race Lightning 368, I think his pottering boat is a
Heron.

Dinghy sailing has gone through a sea-change in the past 30 years.
Firstly GRP boats became a practical proposition, and good designs
intended to be built in GRP came along. Secondly, in the UK racing
world there has been a big move away from the more complicated 2-man
boats to simple 1-man boats, like the Laser. There are lots of
reasons, include that developing an effective 2-man racing team takes
a lot of time & effort, that 2-man boats are more expensive to buy &
keep (maintenance, insurance), and that both members of the team need
pretty much equal amounts of time & money to dedicate to their sport.