Listening for Quiet

On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.
Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

Airbus writes:

Well that's handy - If you're talking about Paris, France the arrival and
departure procedures are designed to circumnavigate the city . . .

Yes, but as I said, even when I lived in another city beneath an arrival path
for one of the world's largest airports, I still didn't hear much.

It used to be entirely forbidden to overfly Paris without special permission,
but now I do see aircraft occasionally flying over the city. I understand
that rules were relaxed some years ago (ironically not long after 9/11), but
at the same time I still see Paris marked as a prohibited area on the charts,
so I'm not sure what the status is exactly.

Airbus wrote in :

In article . com,
says...


On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.

AIM


Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

NO



Actually, the FARs rule, not the AIM.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Airbus writes:

Not surprising that you are not sure, because you are not a pilot. To pilots,
the rules and procedures are clear, and vector departures and arrivals may
route planes over the city.

If only things were so black and white.

On 2007-10-12 14:56:44 -0700, daffy said:

On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.
Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

The Federal Aviation Regulations can be found in most bookstores and
pilot shops. However, there really aren't many rules.

Federal Aviation Regulation 91.119 spells out the minimum safe altitude
for VFR aircraft. Remember, this is a safety rule, not a noise
abatement rule (although crashing airplanes are pretty noisy):
----------
§*91.119***Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency
landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or
settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of
1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of
2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the
surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those
cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any
person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
(d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums
prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is
conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In
addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any
routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the
Administrator.
----------

As you can see, the above is a general rule. There are numerous
exceptions. Some areas are restricted airspace and have their own
minimum altitude requirements. Also, some wildlife areas, including all
of Olympic National Park, as well as almost all other state and
national parks, nature preserves, and so forth, 'request' that, except
when taking off and landing, you remain 2000 feet above them. Note that
this is a request. It does not have the force of law and it is not a
regulation. There are many reasons it cannot be made a regulation.
However, a pilot who regularly violates this request without a very
good reason is likely to get a phone call from park officials. Since no
one goes and paints a blue dotted line on the ground around all these
areas, pilots who are unfamiliar with an area may inadvertently fly too
low over a preserve.

We also are subject to the same rules as everyone else about
approaching marine mammals too closely or harassing them. When we are
on the water we are boats and are governed by the Coast Guard and have
the same rules as all other boats.

Some Wilderness Areas have airfields in them, although they are rare
and maintained for historic reasons, fire-fighting, or some sort of
compromise worked out with pilots and other interest groups in order to
get the area designated as wilderness. The USDA Forest Service is
usually responsible for these fields and they are generally run with a
strict view to minimizing the impact on wilderness.

Due to the fact that planes come in all shapes, colors and sizes there
is no good way to tell how high they are or how far away they are.
Airplanes can appear to be closer or farther away at different times of
the day or night and in different weather, too. This is a big issue
with pilots. After all, we do not want to run into each other and some
simple method of determining how far away a plane is would be quite
welcome. Besides, we don't like being buzzed by low flying planes any
more than anyone else. If we want to see low flying planes we go to the
airport. Pilots don't like jerks and we have ways of dealing with them.

Although everyone, including the pilots, find airplane noise
objectionable, aircraft are possibly the ultimate in leave-no-trace
visits to parks. Many pilots are rabid environmentalists because we see
the overall effects of environmental damage that are not visible or
difficult to comprehend from the ground. It is not difficult, for
example, to see what parts of Hood Canal are dead or dying, or where a
forest is blighted. We can also see the trash left by humans
everywhere, the bears rummaging through it, and the results of drunken
nitwits who are careless with fire. We can see where criminals have
cleared off public forest lands in order to raise pot. If noisy
airplanes bother you, come for a ride and most of us can show you stuff
that will really raise your blood pressure.

You are possibly aware that large areas of Olympic National Park may
have to be closed to hiking. Much of the forest is dying, as are many
of the meadows, because people have packed down the earth around the
trees and left human excrement several inches deep covering several
acres around the beaches and other popular spots. Some of that silence
you hear is the silence of death. No birds. No animals. Hardly even a
leaf stirring. Think about it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Airbus writes:

Not surprising that you are not sure, because you are not a pilot. To
pilots, the rules and procedures are clear, and vector departures and
arrivals may route planes over the city.

If only things were so black and white.


For the purposes of this argument, they are, fjukkwit

Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Airbus writes:

Well that's handy - If you're talking about Paris, France the
arrival and departure procedures are designed to circumnavigate the
city . . .

Yes, but as I said, even when I lived in another city beneath an
arrival path for one of the world's largest airports, I still didn't
hear much.

It used to be entirely forbidden to overfly Paris without special
permission, but now I do see aircraft occasionally flying over the
city. I understand that rules were relaxed some years ago (ironically
not long after 9/11), but at the same time I still see Paris marked as
a prohibited area on the charts, so I'm not sure what the status is
exactly.




Waht?


You're an idiot.


Bertie

In article ,
says...


daffy writes:

The article said "The small plane flying north more than doubles the
ambient sound,
and we react to the intruder as a threat, drawing in, tracking the
source, hunching for
cover until the last traces of engine noise finally die away."

I guess having the land criss-crossed with highways filled with cars, trucks,
and SUVs doesn't count.

Where I live in the city, I can barely hear the occasional jet or prop
airplane over the constant din of vehicular traffic.



Well that's handy - If you're talking about Paris, France the arrival and
departure procedures are designed to circumnavigate the city . . .

Excellent post.
Proof that pertinent, informational and interesting information can, under
exceptional circumstances, be found on usenet . . .



In article 2007101121031516807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom,
says...


The Olympic National Park covers much of northwestern Washington,
including a great deal of the coast, all of the Olympic Mountains, the
Hoh Rain Forest, and much else. It is bordered by important airports
that serve coastal towns, Indian reservations, and international
travel. There are several airports within the boundaries of the park.
There are also several military training areas in and around the park.
There is a narrow corridor between the park and Sub Base Bangor which
is one of the major routes for traffic flying Canada, the San Juan
Islands, Bremerton, Tacoma, Olympia, and Seattle.

Most aircraft avoid flying over the Olympic Mountains because it is
relatively dangerous, rugged territory prone to unpredictable weather
and icing. Because of the park's location, however, and the fact that
the park is broken into two sections, it is not always possible to fly
a route around the park. It can mean adding several hours to a flight
to go around. Not only that, but bad weather in the Strait of Juan de
Fuca, on the coast, or on Puget Sound can leave you little choice.

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law
enforcement purposes, as well as search and rescue, fire fighting, and
surveying. Specially equipped airplanes regularly fly at low level over
the park as part of the effort to control our borders, fight smuggling,
and look for terrorist activity. Some areas completely bounded by the
park are managed lands set aside for tree farming. There are aircraft
actively involved in logging there. Boeing and some airlines have been
known to conduct training flights at low altitude over the park.

Aviation is a huge and necessary part of the activity at Olympic
National Park, perhaps more so than any other park in the nation. Many
peoples' lives and much of the health of the park itself are dependent
on it. If you want to get away from airplanes and their noise, Olympic
National Park is a poor choice.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

In article . com,
says...


On Oct 11, 9:03 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

Pilots do try to maintain at least 2000' above wild areas as requested
by the National Park Service. However, planes taking off or landing
obviously are going to have to fly lower than 2000.' There are
additional aircraft that fly lower than 2000' for scientific and law

Where can I find the rules and regulations that specify how high
or low a plane can fly over various terrain, like cities, wilderness,
etc.

AIM


Also, is there an easy way from the ground to measure the height
of a flying plane?

NO