Moonless Night Claims Two Senior CAP Officers

"Gatt" wrote in news:13jkb2tb9c2q155
@corp.supernews.com:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .

Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?


I do it all the time and haven;'t hit anything yet, AFAIK

LOL! The "AFAIK" must make your insurance guy a little jumpy.


Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now in the
afterlife.


Bertie

Peter Clark wrote in
news
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:39:07 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote in
m:


Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?


Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to the
pilot not knowing where he is.

Period.

And considering the N-number was a 2007 T182T they were in a G1000
with moving map and minimally can display "terrain" screens on the 12"
moving map MFD.


If you're relying on one of those things you can't have a goo situational
awareness thing going on where it counts.

in your head.


the guys who hit the hills in Cali had a moving map....



Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now in the
afterlife.

Bertie

Sorry. Afterlife ain't like this.

Its kinda like Cleveland in March.

And its got no internet.

The gods favor messages on post-its.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200711/1

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in
news:7b2c871147406@uwe:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now
in the afterlife.

Bertie

Sorry. Afterlife ain't like this.

Its kinda like Cleveland in March.

And its got no internet.

The gods favor messages on post-its.


MM, thanks for the clarification.

I's a bit like a Holiday inn as opposed to a Marriot, then.

Bertie

Peter R. wrote:

And also the terrain database of the GNS430W/530W units, too, I would
imagine.


I might trust one of those a bit more than the handheld versions. At
least they have RAIM.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
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On Nov 13, 9:45 am, wrote:


There are four simple solutions to the problem:

1. Don't fly at night in the area.

2. Sophisticated terrain avoidance technology.

3. Always fly high.

4. Stay over a highway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of us don't have an option (although we always have a choice).
An' besides, it's a lot smoother in the dark :-)

Night (or at least, pre-dawn) may be the only time we can get the bird
off the ground.

The technology in a lot of old planes is limited to compass, ASI and
altimeter.

With only forty horses under the cowl, flying 'high' is a relative
sort of thing.

But you get my vote for #4. Even I-10 is necklace of lights, even
late at night & middle of the week.

-R.S.Hoover

What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.
They were both very high time instrument rated pilots.
They were both experienced with mountain flying.
They were flying with the G1000 system that highlights terrain.
There was a "report" to ATC that they had a fuel problem.. that has yet to
be confirmed.

B

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?


TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196556)
The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both
senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near
Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of
operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp,
commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit
8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas.
According to the FAA preliminary report

(http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...a/01_881CP.txt)
visibility was listed as 10 miles when the aircraft crashed about
7:15 p.m.




************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 11/9/2007 Record 1 **

************************************************** ******************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 881CP Make/Model: C182 Description: 182, Skylane
Date: 11/08/2007 Time: 0315

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: LAS VEGAS State: NV Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT CRASHED INTO A MOUNTAIN, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD WERE
FATALLY
INJURED, 12 MILES FROM LAS VEGAS, NV

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:

WEATHER: KLAS 090245Z 10SM FEW180 BKN250 33/M01 A2995

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: LAS VEGAS, NV (WP19) Entry date:
11/09/2007

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/get...&num=130&raw=0
08 Nov 7:56 pm 69 32 25 WSW 3 10.00 FEW180 BKN250 1012.8 29.96
27.688 OK
08 Nov 6:56 pm 73 31 21 WSW 3 10.00 FEW180 BKN250 1012.9 29.95
27.678 OK


---------------------------------------------------
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php#y2007
2007 Phases of the Moon
Universal Time

NEW MOON FIRST QUARTER FULL MOON LAST QUARTER

d h m d h m d h m d h m

JAN. 3 13 57 JAN. 11 12 45
JAN. 19 4 01 JAN. 25 23 01 FEB. 2 5 45 FEB. 10 9 51
FEB. 17 16 14 FEB. 24 7 56 MAR. 3 23 17 MAR. 12 3 54
MAR. 19 2 43 MAR. 25 18 16 APR. 2 17 15 APR. 10 18 04
APR. 17 11 36 APR. 24 6 36 MAY 2 10 09 MAY 10 4 27
MAY 16 19 27 MAY 23 21 03 JUNE 1 1 04 JUNE 8 11 43
JUNE 15 3 13 JUNE 22 13 15 JUNE 30 13 49 JULY 7 16 54
JULY 14 12 04 JULY 22 6 29 JULY 30 0 48 AUG. 5 21 20
AUG. 12 23 03 AUG. 20 23 54 AUG. 28 10 35 SEPT. 4 2 32
SEPT. 11 12 44 SEPT. 19 16 48 SEPT. 26 19 45 OCT. 3 10 06
OCT. 11 5 01 OCT. 19 8 33 OCT. 26 4 52 NOV. 1 21 18
NOV. 9 23 03 NOV. 17 22 33 NOV. 24 14 30 DEC. 1 12 44
DEC. 9 17 40 DEC. 17 10 18 DEC. 24 1 16 DEC. 31 7 51


-----------------------------------------------
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/14562845/detail.html
Air Patrol Officers Killed In Potosi Plane Crash
Men Brought Planes To Nellis For Air Show

POSTED: 7:38 pm PST November 10, 2007
UPDATED: 8:34 pm PST November 10, 2007


LAS VEGAS -- Civil Air Patrol officials confirm that two of their
own were killed in a plane crash into Mount Potosi, just outside
of Las Vegas.

Col. Edwin W. Lewis Jr., director of operations for CAP's Pacific
Region, and Col. Dion E. DeCamp, commander of CAP's Nevada Wing,
died Thursday evening when their CAP plane crashed into the
mountain.

Lewis had traveled to Nellis Air Force Base to drop off a CAP
airplane to be used as an airshow display. He and DeCamp were
apparently en route to Rosamond, Calif., Lewis' hometown, when the
crash occurred.

"The CAP family is deeply saddened by this tremendous loss," said
Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP interim national commander. "There
were no finer members than Col. DeCamp and Col. Lewis. Their
illustrious volunteer service, which collectively spanned more
than seven decades, touched innumerable lives and now, in sorrow,
consoles those left behind as a testament to their dedication and
commitment to the citizens of their respective communities."

The cause of Thursday evening's crash is unknown at this time.
Officials from the National Transportation Safety Board are
currently investigating the incident.


-----------------------------------------------------

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...laircrash.html
http://www.lvrj.com/news/11142391.html
Nov. 09, 2007

Small airplane crashes on Potosi

Accident described as not survivable by LV police air unit

By BETH WALTON
REVIEW-JOURNAL
Click image for enlargement.

Two people were presumed killed Thursday night when a Civil Air
Patrol plane crashed into Mount Potosi, about 35 miles southwest
of Las Vegas, officials said.

A police air unit crew who flew over the wreckage said the crash
was not survivable.

The plane, a single-engine Cessna 172 , went off the radar at
McCarran International Airport about 7:15 p.m., said Ian Gregor,
spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.

It was the second small plane that disappeared from local radar
Thursday night. The same thing had happened with a single-engine
Beechcraft Bonanza at 6:37 p.m. Authorities later learned that
plane had made a successful emergency landing several miles
southeast of Jean, and its two occupants, who were headed to
Phoenix from Las Vegas, were unhurt, Gregor said.

A Las Vegas police air unit was searching the area around Mount
Potosi when the crew heard an explosion and saw a plane burning on
the mountain, Lt. Steve Herpolsheimer said.

The crash was estimated to be about 2,000 feet from the top of the
8,514-foot tall mountain, Herpolsheimer said.

Search and rescue crews tried to get to the crash site using
four-wheel-drive vehicles, he said. Rescue air units were also
sent out to the site, said Las Vegas police spokesman Bill
Cassell.

Late Thursday, police were considering pulling back and waiting
until daylight to try to reach the crash site.

Cassell said he had no idea why the Civil Air Patrol plane was
flying Thursday night. The most common mission for the Civil Air
Patrol is search and rescue.

The crew of this plane was not believed to have been searching for
the missing Beechcraft, so perhaps they were involved in a
training flight, Cassell said.

Civil Air Patrol representatives could not be reached for comment
late Thursday.

Mount Potosi is known as the site of a 1942 plane crash in which
actress Carole Lombard and 21 other people died.

Lombard, the wife of actor Clark Gable, had been returning to
California after taking part in a national war bond campaign for
World War II when the plane she was in, a twin-engine DC-3,
slammed into a cliff near the top of the mountain.

On Nov 13, 3:21 pm, "Watson" wrote:
I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd years.
I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly this
search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.

No longer with them.


Since you were with CAP for 20 years, you are aware (and others might
not be) that all members are volunteers, and each and every mission is
a volunteer mission that can be refused because it is unsafe, or you
are tired, or your dog is sick.

While there are "politics" in the CAP wings, there is no way anyone
should have been punished, by any definition. If the situation is as
you described, someone should have run this all the way to National.

Sorry we lost you.

On Nov 13, 11:20 am, "Marco Leon" wrote:
wrote in message

...



What's really sad is both of them being locals should have known
better.

I know the USAF has many Standard Operating Procedures to prevent this kind
of stuff. Does CAP follow the USAF SOPs or do they have their own?

Marco

The CAP has quite a few SOPs. I've never been an AF pilot so I
wouldn't know much about the differences. Of course, at least one
difference would be that the CAP doesn't get to shoot things down....
There is an incredible amount of pre-flight planning and paperwork
that is required for any CAP flight.

Obviously, something went quite wrong. I could come up with a couple
guesses, but I prefer not to outwardly speculate until some of the
investigation is complete.

While there are a few smartalec comments in the thread, there is one
inescapable fact: A couple of pilots who, by their position and air
time, had spent much time and money in volunteer service, have been
lost. I offer condolences to their families, friends, and squadrons.

"Marco Leon" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

What's really sad is both of them being locals should have known
better.

I know the USAF has many Standard Operating Procedures to prevent this
kind of stuff. Does CAP follow the USAF SOPs or do they have their own?

Marco


CAP 60-1.

Tom C