Moonless Night Claims Two Senior CAP Officers

On Nov 13, 2:01 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:


I know some pilots that are using the terrain features of their Garmin
396/496 to keep them clear of mountains at night. I think they're nuts.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

John,
Good call on your terain avoidance tactics. As for your GPS comments,
the next time you fly on an airliner go tell the crew they are nuts.
The use of MAP mode is actually required in mountanous terain.

On Nov 13, 7:53 pm, wrote:
On Nov 13, 11:20 am, "Marco Leon" wrote:

wrote in message

...

What's really sad is both of them being locals should have known
better.

I know the USAF has many Standard Operating Procedures to prevent this kind
of stuff. Does CAP follow the USAF SOPs or do they have their own?

Marco

The CAP has quite a few SOPs. I've never been an AF pilot so I
wouldn't know much about the differences. Of course, at least one
difference would be that the CAP doesn't get to shoot things down....
There is an incredible amount of pre-flight planning and paperwork
that is required for any CAP flight.

Obviously, something went quite wrong. I could come up with a couple
guesses, but I prefer not to outwardly speculate until some of the
investigation is complete.

While there are a few smartalec comments in the thread, there is one
inescapable fact: A couple of pilots who, by their position and air
time, had spent much time and money in volunteer service, have been
lost. I offer condolences to their families, friends, and squadrons.

And the taxpayers lost a pretty expensive new plane in the process.
Between this one and the two crashes in Wyoming the CAP is painting a
dismal picture of safety. Godspeed to the lost pilots....

Ben.
www.haaspowerair.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 13, 3:21 pm, "Watson" wrote:
I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd
years.
I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly
this
search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.

No longer with them.


Since you were with CAP for 20 years, you are aware (and others might
not be) that all members are volunteers, and each and every mission is
a volunteer mission that can be refused because it is unsafe, or you
are tired, or your dog is sick.

I understand that, too bad it did not work as advertised in the real world.
We would be pressured many times to take a questionable sortie in marginal
weather in the mountains or at night. If you refused or were reluctant they
would say things like: "Maybe you need more training?" or "If your skills
are not adequate to handle this situation, then your certification in this
area may not be appropriate." That kind of "subtle" pressure gets people
killed.

All the hours in the logbook and all the experience in the world will not
make that mountain any softer. Shaking your logbook at death never works.

While there are "politics" in the CAP wings, there is no way anyone
should have been punished, by any definition. If the situation is as
you described, someone should have run this all the way to National.

Sorry we lost you.

I'm not.

The "politics" in that wing are out of control. I was a Chief Check Pilot
for a group.

I saw numerous violations of their SOP reg (60-1). If the offender was a
favored son, then everything was swept under the rug. The wing vice pobah
took an airplane at an USAF evaluated SAR exercise with absolutely no
paperwork. The mad scramble was on behind the scenes trying to cover his
tracks with made up forms and to keep the AF in the dark.

An owner/member with a helicopter would got away with violating many regs
because the wing thought it was neat to have a helo at their disposal and
the wing commander was an employee in the helo owner's business.

I took my own airplane to a SAR at Wing CAP's request, when I refused to
hand over the keys of my airplane to the Mission Coordinator I was asked -
"ordered" to leave. When I got the engine started he changed his mind.

My former squadron was nearly decimated by a money grab in which locally
donated money was required to be sent to wing hq on the other side of the
state. That did not sit too well with our local benefactors who expected
their donated money to benefit their community. The wing commander wanted a
new HQ building and couldn't stand to see principal earning interest over
which he had no control.

These are some of the many horror stories. I can't beleive they have pulled
the wool over their funding agencies eyes; the state legislatures and US
Congress, for so long.

These are just the highlights. Film at eleven.

But I'm not bitter, not much.

Watson

Like I said, assholes.


Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.




Bertie

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" wrote
in :

What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.

I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.

They were both very high time instrument rated pilots.
They were both experienced with mountain flying.
They were flying with the G1000 system that highlights terrain.

That's what makes the cause of the mishap so baffling.

There was a "report" to ATC that they had a fuel problem.. that has yet to
be confirmed.


Are you able to cite a source for that information? This is the first
I've heard of it.

B

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?


TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196556)
The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both
senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near
Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of
operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp,
commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit
8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas.
According to the FAA preliminary report

(http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...a/01_881CP.txt)
visibility was listed as 10 miles when the aircraft crashed about
7:15 p.m.




************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 11/9/2007 Record 1 **

************************************************** ******************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 881CP Make/Model: C182 Description: 182, Skylane
Date: 11/08/2007 Time: 0315

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: LAS VEGAS State: NV Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT CRASHED INTO A MOUNTAIN, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD WERE
FATALLY
INJURED, 12 MILES FROM LAS VEGAS, NV

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:

WEATHER: KLAS 090245Z 10SM FEW180 BKN250 33/M01 A2995

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: LAS VEGAS, NV (WP19) Entry date:
11/09/2007

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/get...&num=130&raw=0
08 Nov 7:56 pm 69 32 25 WSW 3 10.00 FEW180 BKN250 1012.8 29.96
27.688 OK
08 Nov 6:56 pm 73 31 21 WSW 3 10.00 FEW180 BKN250 1012.9 29.95
27.678 OK


---------------------------------------------------
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php#y2007
2007 Phases of the Moon
Universal Time

NEW MOON FIRST QUARTER FULL MOON LAST QUARTER

d h m d h m d h m d h m

JAN. 3 13 57 JAN. 11 12 45
JAN. 19 4 01 JAN. 25 23 01 FEB. 2 5 45 FEB. 10 9 51
FEB. 17 16 14 FEB. 24 7 56 MAR. 3 23 17 MAR. 12 3 54
MAR. 19 2 43 MAR. 25 18 16 APR. 2 17 15 APR. 10 18 04
APR. 17 11 36 APR. 24 6 36 MAY 2 10 09 MAY 10 4 27
MAY 16 19 27 MAY 23 21 03 JUNE 1 1 04 JUNE 8 11 43
JUNE 15 3 13 JUNE 22 13 15 JUNE 30 13 49 JULY 7 16 54
JULY 14 12 04 JULY 22 6 29 JULY 30 0 48 AUG. 5 21 20
AUG. 12 23 03 AUG. 20 23 54 AUG. 28 10 35 SEPT. 4 2 32
SEPT. 11 12 44 SEPT. 19 16 48 SEPT. 26 19 45 OCT. 3 10 06
OCT. 11 5 01 OCT. 19 8 33 OCT. 26 4 52 NOV. 1 21 18
NOV. 9 23 03 NOV. 17 22 33 NOV. 24 14 30 DEC. 1 12 44
DEC. 9 17 40 DEC. 17 10 18 DEC. 24 1 16 DEC. 31 7 51


-----------------------------------------------
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/14562845/detail.html
Air Patrol Officers Killed In Potosi Plane Crash
Men Brought Planes To Nellis For Air Show

POSTED: 7:38 pm PST November 10, 2007
UPDATED: 8:34 pm PST November 10, 2007


LAS VEGAS -- Civil Air Patrol officials confirm that two of their
own were killed in a plane crash into Mount Potosi, just outside
of Las Vegas.

Col. Edwin W. Lewis Jr., director of operations for CAP's Pacific
Region, and Col. Dion E. DeCamp, commander of CAP's Nevada Wing,
died Thursday evening when their CAP plane crashed into the
mountain.

Lewis had traveled to Nellis Air Force Base to drop off a CAP
airplane to be used as an airshow display. He and DeCamp were
apparently en route to Rosamond, Calif., Lewis' hometown, when the
crash occurred.

"The CAP family is deeply saddened by this tremendous loss," said
Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP interim national commander. "There
were no finer members than Col. DeCamp and Col. Lewis. Their
illustrious volunteer service, which collectively spanned more
than seven decades, touched innumerable lives and now, in sorrow,
consoles those left behind as a testament to their dedication and
commitment to the citizens of their respective communities."

The cause of Thursday evening's crash is unknown at this time.
Officials from the National Transportation Safety Board are
currently investigating the incident.


-----------------------------------------------------

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...laircrash.html
http://www.lvrj.com/news/11142391.html
Nov. 09, 2007

Small airplane crashes on Potosi

Accident described as not survivable by LV police air unit

By BETH WALTON
REVIEW-JOURNAL
Click image for enlargement.

Two people were presumed killed Thursday night when a Civil Air
Patrol plane crashed into Mount Potosi, about 35 miles southwest
of Las Vegas, officials said.

A police air unit crew who flew over the wreckage said the crash
was not survivable.

The plane, a single-engine Cessna 172 , went off the radar at
McCarran International Airport about 7:15 p.m., said Ian Gregor,
spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.

It was the second small plane that disappeared from local radar
Thursday night. The same thing had happened with a single-engine
Beechcraft Bonanza at 6:37 p.m. Authorities later learned that
plane had made a successful emergency landing several miles
southeast of Jean, and its two occupants, who were headed to
Phoenix from Las Vegas, were unhurt, Gregor said.

A Las Vegas police air unit was searching the area around Mount
Potosi when the crew heard an explosion and saw a plane burning on
the mountain, Lt. Steve Herpolsheimer said.

The crash was estimated to be about 2,000 feet from the top of the
8,514-foot tall mountain, Herpolsheimer said.

Search and rescue crews tried to get to the crash site using
four-wheel-drive vehicles, he said. Rescue air units were also
sent out to the site, said Las Vegas police spokesman Bill
Cassell.

Late Thursday, police were considering pulling back and waiting
until daylight to try to reach the crash site.

Cassell said he had no idea why the Civil Air Patrol plane was
flying Thursday night. The most common mission for the Civil Air
Patrol is search and rescue.

The crew of this plane was not believed to have been searching for
the missing Beechcraft, so perhaps they were involved in a
training flight, Cassell said.

Civil Air Patrol representatives could not be reached for comment
late Thursday.

Mount Potosi is known as the site of a 1942 plane crash in which
actress Carole Lombard and 21 other people died.

Lombard, the wife of actor Clark Gable, had been returning to
California after taking part in a national war bond campaign for
World War II when the plane she was in, a twin-engine DC-3,
slammed into a cliff near the top of the mountain.

"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote:

Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me)
pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel
real good...pause...NOT.

Why worry? Two experienced pilots does not mean that they have common
sense. I don't fly in the mountains at night...moon or no moon.

Most likely the final report will indicate that they screwed up.

Ron Lee

"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote:

"NW_Pilot" wrote in message
...
Flying mountians at night with an overcast is looking for trouble!

Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?


No.

Ron Lee

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" wrote
in :

What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.

I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.

I take it you've never flown in the southwestern desert areas.

Under a full moon the terrain is difficult to see.

Under much less than a full moon the terrain is impossible to see.

I Follow Roads is the only visual reference you have.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in message
news:7b2cb0da861fe@uwe...
Peter R. wrote:

And also the terrain database of the GNS430W/530W units, too, I would
imagine.

I might trust one of those a bit more than the handheld versions. At
least they have RAIM.

The handhelds do put a very large X over the screen when there is not enough
data. I personally think the handhelds are pretty conservative in their
depiction parameters. If you never let any yellow areas show up, you've
given yourself at least a 1,000-foot cushion.

That said, I almost always fly under IFR at night unless I'm doing practice
approaches.

Marco

F. Baum wrote:

John,
Good call on your terain avoidance tactics. As for your GPS comments,
the next time you fly on an airliner go tell the crew they are nuts.
The use of MAP mode is actually required in mountanous terain.

Aren't airliners flying IFR? Terrain avoidance is built in to instrument
procedures (assuming you follow the rules). I've also never seen a 396/496
handheld in an airliner cockpit.

As someone else posted, the handhelds can give an indication when
satellites become unavailable, but I don't think they are quite at the level
of RAIM integrity in the IFR approved units. I've seen a 396 just freeze on
position, with no error indication. Don't get me wrong, they are good.
Just not up to the level that I'd be willing to trust my hide to one.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

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