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Ferry flight a commercial op?



 
 
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  #41  
Old November 14th 07, 03:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]
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Posts: 3,851
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in news:fhf54d$67b$1
@xen1.xcski.com:

In a previous article, Helen said:
Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html


But that's carrying passengers. I'm not going to be carrying passengers.



IO still think you're OK. There's the letter of the law and the spirit of
the law. The law requiring you to have a commercial licence to fly for
dough is to further public safety. IOW someone paying for flying has a
right to a certain standards otherwise we'd have a bunch of Anthonys flying
airliners.
Your operation would not endanger the public anymore than if you were fling
your own or a rented airplane from a to b.
Having said that, some FAA types are natural born policemen and can't see
past the nose on their faces. Most can, though.


Bertie
  #42  
Old November 14th 07, 05:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Neil Gould
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Posts: 723
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

Recently, Steven P. McNicoll posted:

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...

If the club didn't have to pay for a pilot for services rendered
that they received payment, then the club had a net profit from the
pilot's contribution.


Not necessarily. They could also have a net loss or they could break
even.

I wasn't referring to their year-end financial report.

At any rate, I suspect that most laws and rules are written at a certain
level of naiveté and it is the unintended consequences that lead to such
ambiguities as those we're discussing. A service that you get for free
that you would otherwise have to pay for is recorded in the credits
column, and just that could qualify the service as a commercial
transaction. If that service is of sufficient value, it *will* be of
interest to the IRS and thus the FAA and so forth, regardless of the
year-end financial picture.

Bottom line as I see it is that unless someone has a bug up their
posterior, this ferry flight is unlikely to become an issue for anyone
unless the club picks up the cost of the trip.

Neil



  #43  
Old November 14th 07, 05:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Helen
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Posts: 30
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.

Helen

Maxwell wrote:
"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


If your club is not specifically charging the new owner to deliver the
aircraft,

and you are not receiving compensation for delivering it,

you are good to go.

I have never heard of a case where accruing hours during a flight was
considered compensation.



  #44  
Old November 14th 07, 06:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Yes - I have a name[_2_]
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Posts: 44
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...
The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


What if you don't log the time?

My humble opinion:

#1) The FAA will never know

#2) If they somehow find out, they will need to decide if it they feel it's
a violation.

#3) If they decide it's a violation, they have to decide to punish you.

If nothing happens, I feel then chances of #1 are pretty small. Even if #1
occurs, what is the likelyhood of #2 and #3 happening?


  #45  
Old November 14th 07, 06:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Maxwell
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Posts: 1,116
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?







  #46  
Old November 14th 07, 07:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
C J Campbell[_1_]
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Posts: 799
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

On 2007-11-13 16:01:14 -0800, (Paul Tomblin) said:

Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


It is not clear. After all, you are not carrying passengers or cargo
'for hire.' Neither are you getting paid, beyond the possible exception
of the value of the flight time. Aircraft salesmen are allowed to
demonstrate the airplane to customers. Presumably they are also flying
the plane to the city where the aircraft will be demoed.

§Â*61.113Â*Â*Â*Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section,
no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation
or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of a charitable,
nonprofit, or community event flight described in §91.146, if the
sponsor and pilot comply with the requirements of §91.146.
(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses
that are directly related to search and location operations, provided
the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental
fees, and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and
control of:
(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or
(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.
(f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least
200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight
to a prospective buyer.
(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.

Furthermore, your club can charge any price that it wants for 'renting'
the aircraft to you, including nothing at all or even paying for your
fuel.

§Â*61.133Â*Â*Â*Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges —(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot
certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft—
(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the
person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the
applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and
(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in
accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter
that apply to the operation.

It is quite clear that any commercial pilot may ferry the aircraft for
compensation or hire if it is not carrying passengers or property. This
is not a part 135 or commercial airline operation, after all. So, you
could, if you were a commercial pilot, charge anything you like for the
flight and maybe even do some commercial aerial photography along the
way.

Part 119 governs whether a flight is covered by the flight rules for
commercial airlines. Note particularly 119.1(e)(3):

§Â*119.1Â*Â*Â*Applicability.
...
(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved
conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20
seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload
capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to—
(1) Student instruction;
(2) Nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted after September 11, 2007, in
an airplane or helicopter having a standard airworthiness certificate
and passenger-seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer and a maximum
payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less that begin and end at the same
airport, and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that
airport, in compliance with the Letter of Authorization issued under
§91.147 of this chapter. For nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted in
accordance with part 136, subpart B of this chapter, National Parks Air
Tour Management, the requirements of part 119 of this chapter apply
unless excepted in §136.37(g)(2). For Nonstop Commercial Air Tours
conducted in the vicinity of the Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona,
the requirements of SFAR 50–2, part 93, subpart U, and part 119 of this
chapter, as applicable, apply.
(3) Ferry or training flights;
(4) Aerial work operations, including—
(i) Crop dusting, seeding, spraying, and bird chasing;
(ii) Banner towing;
(iii) Aerial photography or survey;
(iv) Fire fighting;
(v) Helicopter operations in construction or repair work (but it does
apply to transportation to and from the site of operations); and
(vi) Powerline or pipeline patrol;
(5) Sightseeing flights conducted in hot air balloons;
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the
airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of
conducting intentional parachute operations.
(7) Helicopter flights conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of the
airport of takeoff if—
(i) Not more than two passengers are carried in the helicopter in
addition to the required flightcrew;
(ii) Each flight is made under day VFR conditions;
(iii) The helicopter used is certificated in the standard category and
complies with the 100-hour inspection requirements of part 91 of this
chapter;
(iv) The operator notifies the FAA Flight Standards District Office
responsible for the geographic area concerned at least 72 hours before
each flight and furnishes any essential information that the office
requests;
(v) The number of flights does not exceed a total of six in any calendar year;
(vi) Each flight has been approved by the Administrator; and
(vii) Cargo is not carried in or on the helicopter;
(8) Operations conducted under part 133 of this chapter or 375 of this title;
(9) Emergency mail service conducted under 49 U.S.C. 41906; or
(10) Operations conducted under the provisions of §91.321 of this chapter.

Ferry flights are a specific exception to the rules for common
carriers, so a commercial pilot could ferry your Lance for compensation
or hire without meeting the requirements for common carriers.

The question is, could you, as a private pilot, ferry the plane? I can
just about guarantee that the CFI who claims that it is a commercial
operation will report it to the FAA as such. He probably wants the job
and will be offended by your flying it for free. Never mind whether he
is actually competent to fly the Lance, you understand, it is just that
he thinks he should do the job and get paid for it.

Or he might simply be an incompetent CFI who has a poor understanding
of the FARs and he thinks you need to be part 135 to fly ferry flights.

Whatever. This guy is Trouble with a capital T. It is entirely up to
you whether you want to deal with it or not. Best way to head off such
trouble is to simply call the FSDO in advance and get their take on it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

  #47  
Old November 14th 07, 08:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
C J Campbell[_1_]
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Posts: 799
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

On 2007-11-13 19:25:30 -0800, buttman said:

On Nov 13, 5:53 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
Something like ten years ago, maybe more, there was a case that involved a
skydiving club. One of the members was also a private pilot and volunteered
to fly the jump plane. He thought it a great way to build free time towards
his commercial. Since he was using the time towards another rating it was
deemed to be compensation since he'd otherwise have to pay for it and the
flights were a commercial operation.



http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

this case?

If so, in that case, the pilot was in the wrong because he was flying
passengers who had paid to be there.


He was, but (just to be clear about this) it is not because he was
violating the rules for common carriage. See part 119.1:

§Â*119.1Â*Â*Â*Applicability.
...
(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved
conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20
seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload
capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to—
...
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the
airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of
conducting intentional parachute operations.

So, it is not a question of whether he was carrying passengers as a
common carrier. It is a question of whether he was piloting an aircraft
and carrying passengers for compensation in violation of the privileges
and limitations of a private pilot certificate. The FAA said being
allowed to fly an aircraft for free was a form of compensation. The
problem I really have with this ruling (and the reason I brought this
subject up in the first place) was the Administrator's insistence that
a private pilot sharing expenses with his passengers must have a
'common purpose' with them for the flight. This is clearly wrong. You
almost get the impression that if the pilot had jumped out of the plane
along with the skydivers that the FAA would have been okay with that,
because then he would have shared enough 'common purpose' with the
skydivers to meet the 'shared expenses' rule (provided he had paid his
share of the expenses). Because he did not jump out of the plane, there
was no 'common purpose' with the skydivers. This is bogus, as the FARs
make no mention at all of the need for a 'common purpose' when sharing
expenses. See part 61.113 -- no mention of 'common purpose' at all:

§Â*61.113Â*Â*Â*Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section,
no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation
or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.


I think it is clear that this was an obvious example of someone
attempting to circumvent the FARs governing commercial flight.
Unfortunately, this forced the FAA to adopt a position that adversely
affects private pilots engaged in ordinary activity. All it takes is
one guy to try to find a loophole, and the FAA will have to plug up the
loophole with a plug that blocks hundreds or even thousands of pilots
who are engaging in an activity that was formerly considered
legitimate. The 'common purpose' test is clearly out of bounds and
should only be used in cases of questions of common carriage. In this
case, the skydiving operation was clearly 'holding out' without having
to resort to any sort of 'common purpose' test. They were advertising
in the Yellow Pages, after all, which is how the pilot found them. But,
even though they were 'holding out,' they were still within the
exception of part 119.1(e)(3), so the issue of 'common purpose' should
never have come up at all.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

  #48  
Old November 14th 07, 08:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
C J Campbell[_1_]
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Posts: 799
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

On 2007-11-14 10:47:07 -0800, "Maxwell" said:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

  #49  
Old November 14th 07, 08:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Maxwell
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Posts: 1,116
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:2007111412152311272-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
On 2007-11-14 10:47:07 -0800, "Maxwell" said:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf


That order doesn't say that.


  #50  
Old November 14th 07, 09:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]
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Posts: 3,851
Default Ferry flight a commercial op?

C J Campbell wrote in
news:2007111412152311272-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

On 2007-11-14 10:47:07 -0800, "Maxwell" said:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf


That's not a ferry flight. That's carrying pax for hire. The parachutists
paid to fly.
So, both the letter and spirit of the law were clearly violated in this
case.
Any private pilot can carry his friend up and have him jump out of his
airplane. the chutist can even kick in for gas...


Bertie
 




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