Questions on landing at a towered airport

Tman wrote:


That said, they've always given me "report xxxx" position report request
when inbound, never got vectors from them....

They have a radar to refer to. They are not radar controllers. Pretty
much any class D near a larger class C or B airport will have a scope in
the cab. Get away from a larger radar facility and there's no radar for
that smaller airport to have in the first place. And some airports
bought their own radar and had it added to the system. That's happened
here in Montana.

They have a radar to refer to. They are not radar controllers. Pretty
much any class D near a larger class C or B airport will have a scope in
the cab. Get away from a larger radar facility and there's no radar for
that smaller airport to have in the first place. And some airports
bought their own radar and had it added to the system. That's happened
here in Montana.

An aside: Lake Lawn Lodge (in Wisconsin) actually had their own radar
on the roof of their FBO. It looked like a boat radar (and I never
saw it in operation -- by the time I started flying in there, they
were on their way out of business), and I don't know what they could
actually SEE with it -- but it's the only uncontrolled field I've ever
seen with radar!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Tman" N/A wrote in message
...
You know I always thought so to, but out here in CT, I know that HFD Class
D
(Hartford-Brainard) must have radar.

2 Miles north and you're inside Bradley's 10 mile ring. Bradley has radar.

Jay Honeck wrote:
They have a radar to refer to. They are not radar controllers.
Pretty much any class D near a larger class C or B airport will have
a scope in the cab. Get away from a larger radar facility and
there's no radar for that smaller airport to have in the first
place. And some airports bought their own radar and had it added to
the system. That's happened here in Montana.

An aside: Lake Lawn Lodge (in Wisconsin) actually had their own radar
on the roof of their FBO. It looked like a boat radar (and I never
saw it in operation -- by the time I started flying in there, they
were on their way out of business), and I don't know what they could
actually SEE with it -- but it's the only uncontrolled field I've ever
seen with radar!

It was probably weather radar. And it was probably a marine radar.

The rest of the stuff has been hotly debated.. is that 3 miles from the
runway out on base.. or 1 mile out and 3 miles perpendicular to
centerline... so I'll let that go.

But if given a wide pattern at our local airport.. Report 3 Mile Left Base
for Rwy 12R, you had best be 3 miles from the airport headed for a long 3
mile final, and then you get cleared to land. Do not DO NOT cut the pattern
short.. the tower will be all over you for cutting through the traffic
pattern of those he has on left traffic to Rwy 12L.

This happens all the time.. you are approaching the airport from the
Northeast, there is "training or T&G traffic" on the shorter 12L and you are
a full stop.. so you get 12R but tower still needs you to get around and
clear of the 12L traffic pattern. Oh.. and many times.. the tower has split
the airfield.. one tower operator on 12L freq, and one or 12R freq.. and
they are standing side by side.

Yes,, it gets that busy at this Class D tower.

BT

"Tman" N/A wrote in message
...
I should know the answers to these, but have gotten some conflicting
opinions without much authoritative reference, so wouldn't mind some more
from this NG .

When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
miles out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.

* Just to confirm what I think is true about what the controller wants me
to do: Fly as directly as possible (in the absence of other guidance, not
crossing the field or other downwind / upwind legs, and practicing
see/avoid ) to a point that is 3 miles away from the extended centerline,
and will intersect the extended centerline on a base leg to leave a
comfortable, but not longish final approach path, say a 1 mile final.
E.g. 1 mile from the numbers on final, and 3 miles from the extended
centerline at a right angle, effectively a little over 3 miles straight
line from the numbers.

* Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
"cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as
reasonably as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?

* Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent with a
squarish pattern to the numbers, but also make much more feasible landing
in the airport environment, if not the numbers, should the engine stop.
At 1000 AGL 3 miles out, there is just no hope of making the airport --
I'd rather not be that low unless I really need to be. Is there any rule
that says I need to be at TPA when reporting to the controller points on
the pattern?

* Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
fair amount of experience at Class D fields. Oh and I'm a new PPL with
circa 100 hrs. Is there anything I should be concerned about flying into
a Class C for the first time, or is my experience working at Class D and
with controllers going to serve me quite well? The two things I have
heard is a) don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll
probably get vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier),
and b) brush up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance,
since that will be more probable....

Appreciate the thoughts and opinions of others with more experience!
T

OK, well given the variety of opinion on these replies from the NG -- and
i'd suspect variety of local custom-- I'd think that 12R controller had
better clear up if he means a 3 mile final, or a 3 mile base leg.... or he's
gonna be "all over" people all day.
You guys are giving me the mind that it is a good idea to read something
back like below when working with an unfamiliar towered field just to avoid
any confusion at all... at least it gives everyone a chance to sort out
misunderstandings early on:

Tower: "report a 3 mile left base runway 23".
Readback: "copy that 3 mile left base, for a 1/2 mile final, 23, 12F".

BTW, you guys on the NG are great with the different perspectives and
opinions. i don't get this richness from the local CFI's and hangar crowd

T


"BT" wrote in message
...
The rest of the stuff has been hotly debated.. is that 3 miles from the
runway out on base.. or 1 mile out and 3 miles perpendicular to
centerline... so I'll let that go.

But if given a wide pattern at our local airport.. Report 3 Mile Left Base
for Rwy 12R, you had best be 3 miles from the airport headed for a long 3
mile final, and then you get cleared to land. Do not DO NOT cut the
pattern short.. the tower will be all over you for cutting through the
traffic pattern of those he has on left traffic to Rwy 12L.

This happens all the time.. you are approaching the airport from the
Northeast, there is "training or T&G traffic" on the shorter 12L and you
are a full stop.. so you get 12R but tower still needs you to get around
and clear of the 12L traffic pattern. Oh.. and many times.. the tower has
split the airfield.. one tower operator on 12L freq, and one or 12R freq..
and they are standing side by side.

I think you cracked the code.. if in doubt.. clarify..
Welcome Jr Birdman..

kidding aside.. are your local CFIs new to the game? or oldsters that really
have not flown much to other locations?

That is one good thing about the NG... you'll get as many varied responses
as there are options..

I even had the situation where I was on "2 mile left base for 12R" again
coming from the Northeast and now traffic pattern to get around to get to
the "other side". The Tower cleared me to land.. So I acknowledge and
continued on my base to intercept final at about 1.5 miles out and was
working my altitude accordingly.

Because I did not turn towards the runway.. the Tower controller quickly
called and stated that he needed me to turn toward the runway now!! .. he
was very explicit..a s it turned out he was trying to sequence me in front
of other traffic so.. I did just that.. I turned direct to the numbers..
sped up a bit and got the plane down (it's an Arrow, it was easy), I was
about 30 degrees off runway heading.. and I turned to line up in the flare
and still made the mid field turn off.

Believe me when I say these discussions come up with the Tower Cheif at our
local Aviation Assoc monthly meetings.

BT
KVGT
33yrs in Aviation


"Tman" N/A wrote in message
news
OK, well given the variety of opinion on these replies from the NG -- and
i'd suspect variety of local custom-- I'd think that 12R controller had
better clear up if he means a 3 mile final, or a 3 mile base leg.... or
he's gonna be "all over" people all day.
You guys are giving me the mind that it is a good idea to read something
back like below when working with an unfamiliar towered field just to
avoid any confusion at all... at least it gives everyone a chance to sort
out misunderstandings early on:

Tower: "report a 3 mile left base runway 23".
Readback: "copy that 3 mile left base, for a 1/2 mile final, 23, 12F".

BTW, you guys on the NG are great with the different perspectives and
opinions. i don't get this richness from the local CFI's and hangar crowd

T


"BT" wrote in message
...
The rest of the stuff has been hotly debated.. is that 3 miles from the
runway out on base.. or 1 mile out and 3 miles perpendicular to
centerline... so I'll let that go.

But if given a wide pattern at our local airport.. Report 3 Mile Left
Base for Rwy 12R, you had best be 3 miles from the airport headed for a
long 3 mile final, and then you get cleared to land. Do not DO NOT cut
the pattern short.. the tower will be all over you for cutting through
the traffic pattern of those he has on left traffic to Rwy 12L.

This happens all the time.. you are approaching the airport from the
Northeast, there is "training or T&G traffic" on the shorter 12L and you
are a full stop.. so you get 12R but tower still needs you to get around
and clear of the 12L traffic pattern. Oh.. and many times.. the tower has
split the airfield.. one tower operator on 12L freq, and one or 12R
freq.. and they are standing side by side.

On Nov 28, 4:03 am, "Tman" N/A wrote:
I should know the answers to these, but have gotten some conflicting
opinions without much authoritative reference, so wouldn't mind some more
from this NG .

Conflicting opinions are my specialty.

When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few miles
out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.

The thing to do in this situation is to READBACK a base to the runway
closest to your ramp. The controller will correct you but keep reading
back your prefered runway and (out of exaserbation) he will just let
you do what you want.

* Now when i am there, and report a 3-mile right base, if he tells me
"cleared to land, runway 23, you're #1", is that a hint or OK to dispense
with a squared off pattern, and make straight for the numbers, as reasonably
as I can manage in terms of flying the airplane safely?

This is a hint to turn to the downwind and extend it out so far that
the student pilot in the 150 behind you is logging cross country time.

* Do I really need to plan my descent so that I am TPA when reporting the
3-mile right base? I Really do not want to be. I'd rather be 2000 AGL,
which will give me a comfortable (but a little aggressive) descent

Plan the decent to be at full flaps top of the white arc and power off
every time. This doesnt do much for proficency but it gives your
passengers a heck of a thrill ride.


* Lastly, I've never flown into a Class C (or Class B) airport, but have a
fair amount of experience at Class D fields.

B, D and C is pretty much all the same. A few things to remember if
ATC gives you a number to call, First, deny everything. Second, make
counter accusations. And third, demand an apology. Be polite but
insistant.


The two things I have heard is a)
don't expect to be reporting points on the pattern, you'll probably get
vectored to a final approach course (and that sounds easier), and b) brush
up on what you need to do for wake turbulence avoidance, since that will be
more probable....

I dont think your plane is going to generate enough wake turbulence to
be a problem, so dont worry about it.

F Baum

When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
miles
out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.

The thing to do in this situation is to READBACK a base to the runway
closest to your ramp. The controller will correct you but keep reading
back your prefered runway and (out of exaserbation) he will just let
you do what you want.


No..
The tower will know you are an idiot.. along with everyone else on the
frequency.. and after a few tower calls to make sure you have the
directions.. and keep giving the wrong readback.. the tower will ask you to
exit the airspace.. too busy for igits tying up the frequency.. he's got 6
solo students in the pattern with better radio discipline.. and parallel
runways

but then as I read the rest of your posting.. I do hope it was all in jest..

BT

BT wrote:
When approaching a towered airport (Class D), suppose I am told a few
miles
out "report a 3-mile right base, runway 23"... as often happens.
The thing to do in this situation is to READBACK a base to the runway
closest to your ramp. The controller will correct you but keep reading
back your prefered runway and (out of exaserbation) he will just let
you do what you want.

No..
The tower will know you are an idiot.. along with everyone else on the
frequency.. and after a few tower calls to make sure you have the
directions.. and keep giving the wrong readback.. the tower will ask you to
exit the airspace.. too busy for igits tying up the frequency.. he's got 6
solo students in the pattern with better radio discipline.. and parallel
runways

Agreed. First off, the FAA has decided that the failure of ATC to
correct a erroneous read back does not absolve the pilot from disobeying
an ATC clearance.

Second, such subterfuge is stupid. If you want a different runway,
ask. ATC will cooperate if it's not inconvenient. It happens every
day.

PCT: Navion 5327K expect straight in approach to runway 1R.
27K: Any chance of 1L?