dogfight

On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the
speed down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum.
It will snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which
is mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic.
I've seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need
vectored thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to
what I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good
one pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.

That was really the key for the Allies. I was not the planes, it was
the pilots. Japanese losses were so high that they looted all the
training schools for experienced pilots and sent them to the front.
Germany simply kept their best pilots at the front for the duration.
That is a great way for a few guys to rack up impressive totals as aces
(Germany had about a hundred pilots who had shot down more than a
hundred planes), but they never pass their knowledge on and attrition
eventually takes most of them out. The Allies continually rotated their
best pilots back to the training centers.

Sure, the 109 in skilled hands was a deadly opponent, the operative
phrase being "in skilled hands." Germany simply ran out of skilled
hands. Erich Hartmann may have survived the war, but he lost far too
many of his comrades in arms. Who knows what Marseille (for example)
would have done if he had lived? His training program and theories of
strategy and tactics were innovative for his day, to say the least. If
he had been sent back to a training school, things might have gone
harder for the Allies.

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next generation
of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the airlines will reach
the point where Germany was, trying to win the war, so to speak, with
just one pilot.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

wrote in
:

Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing
when they start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a
different direction to what you might expect.

Good point, there's really no telling whether the animators got it
right or just wanted it to look really amazing and cool. If the pilot
objected they didn't air his objections. The show isn't into that kind
of analysis. It's more of a "look at THIS!!" kinda thing.


Tha's it, still, i's as colse as you're going to get 'til they invent a
time machine!

Bertie

wrote:
Snap Roll.

I can't find the maneuver as it was depicted in the show either in my
Aerobat manual or in Neil William's book.

The snap roll in the Aerobat manual is what I was thinking of when
Bertie mentioned snap roll -- essentially an accelerated spin in the
direction of flight which involves inversion about the longitudinal
axis. Maybe there are other versions of snap rolls that don't "invert"
you about the longitudinal axis. I dunno.

Let me describe the P51 maneuver this way: Imagine a car driving along
a gentle curve being chased by another car -- the first car hits a
patch of ice and does a rapid 360, recovering in the same direction as
it started.

That's pretty much what the plane did (although it climbed some during
whatever kind of stall this was). Anyway now imagine the headlights of
the spinning car are machine guns: as the spinning car gets to about
270 degrees from original heading and the chasing car is starting to
go past the guns start to fire, continuing to fire as the first car
spins back to its orginal heading, nailing the second car the whole
way as it goes by.

The P51 was never "upside down" as you'd expect in a snap roll. Maybe
a spin out?

Bang -- down went the 109.

Speaking of airframes coming apart, I don't recall ever reading about
such things happening in WWII dogfights. It seems it would given the
complexity and fear of the situation. Did it happen much? Maybe that
kind of thing wasn't reported because it's not exactly a heroic end to
an aircraft / pilot.

I understand disintegration was far more common in WWI.

It's hard to visualize a 51 doing a maneuver as you describe it; in the
horizontal plane and flat. A normal snap in the Mustang would be done
with no fuel at all in the fuselage tank (if installed) at an airspeed
below maneuvering speed preferably with power on up to about 46 inches
with the prop set at 2700 RPM or above; applying full back stick and as
the stall breaks hard rudder and aileron together into the snap
direction desired; preferably to the left side which gives a torque
assist and really twists the airplane around in a hurry.
The real danger is that with all that yaw induced and the power up, you
can easily snap the airplane right into a spin with power on, which is a
REAL no no in this aircraft. If this happens, the only way to recover
the airplane is to pull the power immediately and begin a power off
recovery. The altitude loss for a spinning Mustang can be tremendous and
if you don't have some air under you, you could be in for a real short day!
I haven't seen this episode, but just from what you have said, it would
appear that the 51 was defensive and possibly turning with the 109 with
the 109 at his corner speed and the Mustang above his corner velocity.
(Corner speed for both airplanes is the airspeed for each where the
application of maximum available positive g produces a maximum turn rate
and minimum turn radius. If the 109 was at his corner and the Mustang
above the Mustang's corner, the 109 could arc in the plane of the 51's
turn and pull lead due to his tighter turn radius.
If this was the scenario, the 51 was defensive against an aggressive
shooter inside gun range and depending on the angle off and closure
rate, the 51 couldn't force an overshoot until he got the airplane down
to it's corner speed as above corner the 51 would be g limited. (below
corner he would be aerodynamically limited.
Yanking into a defensive snap roll to shake the shooter would be a
desperation maneuver as it would leave the Mustang with an extremely low
Ps with no further maneuvering potential due to specific energy loss. In
other words, meat on the table for the shooter.
Your description of how the Mustang maneuvered through this snap roll of
his is puzzling to me, as the normal flight path for the airplane would
be a snap basically without a change in the velocity vector. In other
words, the Mustang should have snapped all the way around and recovered
basically along the same flight path as its entry.
What COULD have happened if the 109 was in close was that the 51 snapped
a half snap with a very high nose attitude bleeding energy like a stuck
pig and the 109 could have over shot him low. Then as the 51 went
inverted, if he pulled back pressure, he just might have slewed the
aircraft back down and fired as he pulled, nailing the 109 as he went by
low.
Mind you, I'm just guessing here, but this would be one plausible
scenario :-))
Anyway, they tell me the show is well done. Enjoy it in good health.
DH

--
Dudley Henriques

What COULD have happened if the 109 was in close was that the 51 snapped
a half snap with a very high nose attitude bleeding energy like a stuck
pig and the 109 could have over shot him low. Then as the 51 went
inverted, if he pulled back pressure, he just might have slewed the
aircraft back down and fired as he pulled, nailing the 109 as he went by
low.
Mind you, I'm just guessing here, but this would be one plausible
scenario :-))

Wow -- that's quite a guess! My car description was an exaggeration of
the flatness, just to indicate that the animation didn't show an
inversion as a snap roll would have had. The plane was turning to the
left and the maneuver was done to the left.

However there was some climb (nose high) illustrated; the plane did
bleed a lot of speed, the animation showing it perform what might be
called near vertical stall turn (?) not entirely vertical, with the
tail slewing around the nose. The 109 was depicted as over shooting
low and getting blasted on the way by. The risk of the 51 snapping
into a spin was mentioned, with the associated possibility of becoming
the 109's victim.

Anyway if you guys see this episode it would be interesting to find
out if you think the maneuver shown in the animation depicts something
that is possible or not. It's the last segment just after the same
pilot managed to knock an ME262 out of action.

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the
speed down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum.
It will snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which
is mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic.
I've seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need
vectored thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to
what I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good
one pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.

That was really the key for the Allies. I was not the planes, it was the
pilots. Japanese losses were so high that they looted all the training
schools for experienced pilots and sent them to the front. Germany
simply kept their best pilots at the front for the duration. That is a
great way for a few guys to rack up impressive totals as aces (Germany
had about a hundred pilots who had shot down more than a hundred
planes), but they never pass their knowledge on and attrition eventually
takes most of them out. The Allies continually rotated their best pilots
back to the training centers.

Sure, the 109 in skilled hands was a deadly opponent, the operative
phrase being "in skilled hands." Germany simply ran out of skilled
hands. Erich Hartmann may have survived the war, but he lost far too
many of his comrades in arms. Who knows what Marseille (for example)
would have done if he had lived? His training program and theories of
strategy and tactics were innovative for his day, to say the least. If
he had been sent back to a training school, things might have gone
harder for the Allies.

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next generation
of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the airlines will reach
the point where Germany was, trying to win the war, so to speak, with
just one pilot.

The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to the
point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really don't
want my family to fly any more.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:



It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next
generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the
airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to win the
war, so to speak, with just one pilot.

The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:


It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next
generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the
airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to win the
war, so to speak, with just one pilot.
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.


There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.


Bertie


Yeah, it's getting a bit hairy out here with some of the carriers.
Of course the government will solve everything with this new "passengers
Bill of Rights" thing they just pushed through. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Dec 15, 8:54 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.

Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the speed
down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum. It will
snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which is
mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic. I've
seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need vectored
thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to what
I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good one
pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.

--
Dudley Henriques

I don't know if there were any higher performance versions of the
ME-109, but the TA-152 could outperform the Mustang. It was a souped
up version of the FW-190.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Ta_152

On Dec 15, 11:27 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-12-15 19:54:18 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:

It is the same thing that the airlines are doing today: cannibalizing
all the instructors and worrying later about where the next
generation of pilots is going to come from. You wonder if the
airlines will reach the point where Germany was, trying to win the
war, so to speak, with just one pilot.
The airline situation is going to the dogs. It's actually getting to
the point now between the airlines, the FAA, and ATC, that I really
don't want my family to fly any more.

There's a couple I definitely wouldn't let my family on, though I sometimes
have to position on them, I really don't like it.

Bertie

Yeah, it's getting a bit hairy out here with some of the carriers.
Of course the government will solve everything with this new "passengers
Bill of Rights" thing they just pushed through. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

1. You have the right to be strip searched.
2. You have the right to be delayed for hours as little old ladies
are wanded by the TSA.
3. You have the right to drink a fifth of Vodka that you can't carry
on the plane.
4. You have the right to take off your shoes and put them through the
X-Ray machine (odor eaters are discouraged)
5. You have the right to feel like a criminal if you forget to take
you cell phone out before going through the metal detector.
6. You have the right to be "on time" an hour later than you were
scheduled to be.
I'm sure I'm missing a few here...

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 20:36:39 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing when they
start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a different direction
to what you might expect.

Good point, there's really no telling whether the animators got it
right or just wanted it to look really amazing and cool. If the pilot
objected they didn't air his objections. The show isn't into that kind
of analysis. It's more of a "look at THIS!!" kinda thing.

I enjoy the show, but it's occasionally obvious that the writers don't have an
aviation background. You get subtle misuses of terminology, sometimes. I
suspect that the on-camera interviewees have no say in how the rest of the show
is presented.

I think they sometimes "compress" maneuvers; pack them into a tighter geographic
area to increase the dramatic effect. What bugs me more is that A) They
sometimes get the physical shapes of the aircraft wrong, and B) They get the
national markings wrong on the aircraft.

The worst cases of A) have been the depiction of WWI aircraft, especially SPADs.
The landing gear seems to flip around...sometimes the forward legs are vertical
and the aft are slanted, and other times it's the other way around.

For B), they especially seem to lose track of where the US national insignia go.
Sometimes, you see the star-and-bar on the upper surfaces of BOTH wings, other
times it's on both the upper and lower surfaces of the left wing only. They
also often get the proportions wrong. I've seen problems with other country's
aircraft, too, especially German planes.

While the above make me grind my teeth a bit when it happens, I do like the
program. It's interesting to compare the technological sophistication of the
two-hour pilot (first aired about 2-3 years ago) vs. the shows they're doing
now.

Ron Wanttaja