AoA keep it going!

On 19 Dec, 21:59, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Ian wrote:

My glider does all sorts of things as it approaches stall. It gets
awful quiet. The stick starts shaking. The vario plummets. If I manage
to miss all these clear signs, why would a small flashing red light
grab my attention?

Because, unless you're offering an open invitation for me to fly your
glider, I've flown a number that don't give such clear signs,
particularly in landing flap.

Fair point. Assuming you are current and can cope with wood, you are
welcome to fly the Pirat!

And can you imagine what would happen with a stall warning sounder?
Pilots used to flying with gear-down warnings would anxiously check he
undercarriage lever ... subconsciously pulling back to give themselves
a bit more time ...

Did I say anything about a sounder?

Did I say you did? There has, though, been plenty of discussion of
stall warning devices here in the past.

Ian

On 19 Dec, 21:56, "kirk.stant" wrote:

The solution is simple: Just don't get slow on your turn to final. This
has been hammered into my head since my very first flight, and it works
for me. I don't see what an AoA instrument could add to this. If you are
distracted enough to get slow with an ASI, then I see no reason why you
wouldn't be distracted enough to get slow with an AoAI.

ARGGG you just do not understand the concept. Oh well, fun discussion
anyway.

Could you explain a little more. The situation at the moment seems to
be "every glider (bar a few primaries) has an instrument, which if
given attention, will alert the pilot if s/he is flying too slowly on
approach. Despite this, a few pilots manage to fly too slow and
crash".

If that started off ""every glider (bar a few primaries) has an
instrument, which if given attention, will alert the pilot if s/he is
flying at too high an AoA on approach", can you explain why it would
not end

"Despite this, a few pilots manage to fly at too high an AoA and
crash".

In short, why would pilots who ignore the ASI pay attention for an AoA
meter?

Ian

On 20 Dec, 01:55, J a c k wrote:
John Smith wrote:
The solution is simple: Just don't get slow on your turn to final.

Thank you, John. Go to the head of the class.

Now, what is "slow"?

That depends on the day. If wind shear is likely it will be
significantly higher than on a calm day. Which means, of course, that
on a windy day the safe AoA for the final turn will be significantly
lower than on a calm day ...

Ian

On 20 Dec, 02:09, J a c k wrote:
Ian wrote:
Now, if all gliders had AoA gauges, you could jump from one glider to
another and not worry about what the right approach speed is for the
glider you happen to be in.

Wouldn't I have to worry about what the right approach AoA was
instead?

The stalling angle of attack for a given class of airfoils is very
nearly the same for each.

So what? The right AoA for approach is determined by more than the
stalling AoA...

Ian

On 19 Dec, 23:33, Scott wrote:

I generally find that my attention is fully occupied while landing. If
I had an AoA indicator, I would have to take attention away from
something else to look at it (I always have the audio vario and radio
off for the final approach). Would an AoA also indicator free up some
of my attention, and if so, from what?

If you are too busy on landing to watch an AoA indicator you must
therefore be too busy to watch an airspeed indicator.

How on earth do you get that? The ASI is one of the things which
occupies my time on the approach. If I have to watch an AoA indicator
it will have to be instead of something else.

I don't have much
time in gliders but in my powered plane, I usually glance at the ASI as
I level the wings on final, then I just use visual (and wind noise)
references to make the landing with an occasional glance at ASI as I
start the roundout and flare.

Yes, that's how I do it. What would you not do in order to watch an
AoA indicator?

Ian

On 20 Dec, 01:51, J a c k wrote:
Ian wrote:
I generally find that my attention is fully occupied while landing.

When isn't it? I always find myself falling behind somehow whenever I
begin to merely enjoy the scenery.

Oh, hard luck. Enjoying the scenery is one of the reasons I go flying.

If I had an AoA indicator, I would have to take attention away from
something else to look at it...

There is a thing we in the game call a cross-check: look into it.

Are you saying that I could look at another indicator without spending
any less time on anything else? What do these things do - relativistic
time distortion?

(I always have the audio vario and radio
off for the final approach).

Now I get it, Ian: you are really a troll/FAA Inspector, here to roil
the waters on r.a.s. We can play that game.

FAA? What's that, left-hand-side-of-the-Atlantic boy?

The vario-off mode is OK, if you must reduce the aural clutter, but
please tell us how you believe that turning off a major link (radio) you
have with one of the greatest hazards in flying (other traffic) is going
to improve your longevity: and in the pattern, no less? Horrified minds
want to know.

"for the final approach" != "in the pattern"

Any thing which reduces potential distraction during the most
hazardous phase of flying is a Good Thing, in my book. Hearing gliders
isn't nearly as important as seeing them.

Ian

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:55:25 GMT, J a c k
wrote:


Now, what is "slow"?

The simple fact that you arre still able to write this proves that you
know what "slow" is...


Bye
Andreas

Could you explain a little more. The situation at the moment seems to
be "every glider (bar a few primaries) has an instrument, which if
given attention, will alert the pilot if s/he is flying too slowly on
approach. Despite this, a few pilots manage to fly too slow and
crash".

If that started off ""every glider (bar a few primaries) has an
instrument, which if given attention, will alert the pilot if s/he is
flying at too high an AoA on approach", can you explain why it would
not end

"Despite this, a few pilots manage to fly at too high an AoA and
crash".

In short, why would pilots who ignore the ASI pay attention for an AoA
meter?

Ian

Ian, we appear to be comparing apples and oranges - you are talking
about not stalling on final, while I am talking about being able to
accurately thermal, and incidentally have a better instrument for
flying accurate approaches. You are absolutely correct that anyone
who ignores all the indications of an approaching stall will likely do
the same when an AOA indicator is installed. That is a different
issue altogether. What we AOA proponents are saying is that the
cherished airspeed indicator is really a poor substitute for an AOA
indicator in certain phases of flight - mainly low speed ones such as
thermalling and approaches - where accurate flying is important. The
fact that we do so well with airspeed just proves that gliders are
really easy to fly, and pilots quickly learn the characteristics of
their glider.

Will an AOA guage make you a safer pilot, in a modern glider? Maybe a
little; its funny how all power planes have to have an AOA (not
airspeed) controlled stall warning device to be certified. In my
experience, light power planes not really more susceptible to approach
stalls than gliders, but there are more distractions - including that
noisy thing in the front just waiting to quit! Yet they mandate stall
warnings.

Again, in my perfect glider, I would have a nice unambiguous AOA
indication of Clmax (for thermalling), Approach Cl (say at 1.3 Vstall)
- maybe change to this when the gear is down; and L/D max (flaps up).
I don't need to know the specific stall AOA - there is no reason to be
slower than Cl max so by definition I need to reduce AOA if I'm above
that. But I do want to be able - regardless of my ballast load and
bank angle - to slow to the most efficient AOA when pulling into a
thermal. When faster than L/D max, I'm probably flying a McCready
speed, which is not affected by AOA, and needs to be set using the
airspeed indicator.

Obviously, my opinion is colored by having actually flown airplanes
with excellent AOA systems, and by my wish to optimise my soaring for
XC and racing. I really think that within a few years someone will
come up with a simple, low drag, accurate AOA system that will be
adopted by the same group of pilots who eagerly adopted radios, TE,
audio varios, glide computers, GPS, PDA moving maps, transponders,
ELTs, traffic detection devices - all those "unecessary" gadgets that
clutter up our cockpits but, in my opinion, make soaring safer, more
efficient, and more fun.

Cheers,

Kirk

On Dec 20, 9:42 am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
....snip...
Obviously, my opinion is colored by having actually flown airplanes
with excellent AOA systems, and by my wish to optimise my soaring for
XC and racing.
....snip...

Cheers,

Kirk

Kirk,

Could you summarize for me _how_ you used the AOA indicator in those
aircraft, which aircraft and under what conditions ?

I am curious to the actual use(s).

Thanks
Todd Smith
3S

On 20 Dec, 14:42, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Ian, we appear to be comparing apples and oranges - you are talking
about not stalling on final, while I am talking about being able to
accurately thermal, and incidentally have a better instrument for
flying accurate approaches.

I wonder how much "flying at Clmax" matters in good thermalling
compared with "being in the right bit of the thermal"?

Obviously, my opinion is colored by having actually flown airplanes
with excellent AOA systems, and by my wish to optimise my soaring for
XC and racing. I really think that within a few years someone will
come up with a simple, low drag, accurate AOA system that will be
adopted by the same group of pilots who eagerly adopted radios, TE,
audio varios, glide computers, GPS, PDA moving maps, transponders,
ELTs, traffic detection devices - all those "unecessary" gadgets that
clutter up our cockpits but, in my opinion, make soaring safer, more
efficient, and more fun.

If it does these things I'll be all for it. If it costs less than
twenty quid I may even buy one. As a matter of interest, how do you
define "efficient" here?

Ian