German Anti-Shipping Rocket

(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Thomas W Ping wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?

The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
first sinking being HM sloop Egret in the Bay of Biscay (my father's
old ship - he'd left a couple of months before), with HMCS Athabaskan
damaged in the same action. Admiralty was aware of the problem posed
by these weapons - Egret had an admiralty ECM team aboard at the time of
her loss (none of them got out - in fact the doctor was the only
man to escape from below deck). There were a few more successes for the
weapon - notably the cruiser Spartan - but jamming measures rapidly
rendered it useless.
The other weapon - Fritz-X - was a guided bomb, intended for use against
armoured ships. Sank the Italian battleship Roma and crippled Warspite,
but again was rapidly rendered ineffective by ECM.

The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
there is no record of any being tried in combat.
During WW2, the Germans renewed interest in guided/glide weapons
continued with the Fritz X, Hs 293, and others.
The Fritz X met with some success. On September 9, 1943 III/KG 100
sunk the Italian battleship "Roma" and heavily damaged the "Italia".
In subsequent attacks against the allies at Salerno, the Fritz X hits
were recorded on the US Cruiser "Savannah" and three destroyers. On
September 16, 1943 III/KG 100 hit the British battleship "Warspite".
It was damaged so badly it was towed to Malta and out of action for 6
months.
After the D-Day landings, the Fritz X score more hits destroying a
bridge at Pontaubault on Aug 7, 1944 and a big attack was planned
using He-177s in later August but had to be called off when the
bombers were destroyed on the ground on Aug 22, 1944 due to their
crews being stranded in Straussburg due to ;ack of transportation!
That was the end of the FrItz X.
The Hs 293, meanwhile, was first deployed in August 1943 by KG 100
operating against enemy sub hunters in the Gulf of Biscaya. On
September 30, 1943 the harbor at Ajaccio was attacked with Hs 293
armed D0 217s. Two Hs 293s fell short and landed on the waterfront...
to be reconstructed by the allies. These mistakes along with missile
failures set the program back; nevertheless, Fw 200s and He 177s flew
several successful missions with the Hs 293 which resulted in a 31%
hit rate. II/KG 100 achieved a hit rate of 55%. Various further models
of the Hs 293 were tested before the war's end including the
television-guided Hs 293D.
In addition to the two weapons above the Germans tested a wide range
of guided weapons including the L.10 "Friedensengle" glider torpedo-
450 of which were built but not used at the front.

Rob

The Fritz X met with some success.

Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties? Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.

jok

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in
message ...
The Fritz X met with some success.

Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties?

No

Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.


So unknown several books have been written about it and a
Google search returns 222 hits

It was a British ship called the HMT Rohna carrying US troops and
was sunk off the North African coast by He-177 bombers of 11/KG-40
using Hs-293 glider bombs

Some 1,047 US troops and 102 sailors were lost.

Keith

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in message ...
The Fritz X met with some success.

Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties? Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.

jok

SS Rohna, British troop transport hit by Hs 293. 1015 killed.

Rob

In article ,
robert arndt wrote:
(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Thomas W Ping wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly

The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the

The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
there is no record of any being tried in combat.

This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
it was I saw it..

IIRC the idea was dropped as it was thought that improvements in AA
weapons (probably the multiple pom-pom) made it obsolete, though
I'm sure I've read that there were similar proposals in the 1930s,
probably after the Queen Bee firing trials where it proved very hard to
actually hit an aeroplane (as opposed to putting the pilot off,
which was what most AA fire of that era did).

Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
vunerability to jamming.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)

"Devi Deveraux" wrote in message
m...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in
message ...
The Fritz X met with some success.



The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be purchased
he


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...=9780806134185




Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject

"Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'

There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
about the incident

This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
in 1940

(One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
as I got about 100 hits on a search)

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Devi Deveraux" wrote in message
m...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in
message ...
The Fritz X met with some success.



The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be purchased
he


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...=9780806134185




Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject

"Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'

There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
about the incident

This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
in 1940

(One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
as I got about 100 hits on a search)

Keith

The is also the Bari poison gas incident that was covered-up during
the war. In that incident in Dec 1943 a Luftwaffe strike in the
Italian harbor sunk 17 ships including a Liberty ship loaded with
mustard gas shells which killed both the crew (over 1000) and several
thousand civilians on land as the gas was released in the air.
The Bari strike was known at the time as the "mini Pearl Harbor" and
quickly covered up.
Got anything else to say, Keith? It may not be "secret" anymore, but
it is not well known. Yet you put the guy down for asking a good
question.

Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Devi Deveraux" wrote in message
m...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Jukka O. Kauppinen"
wrote in
message ...
The Fritz X met with some success.



The newest book "Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" can be
purchased
he



http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...=9780806134185




Lets see up to now I know of the following books on the subject

"Allied Secret:The Sinking of HMT Rohna" by Carlton Jackson
'Forgotten Tragedy' also by Carlton Jackson
'The Rohna Disaster' by James Bennet
the section on the incident in 'Joining the War at Sea'

There was also a resolution passed in the House of representatives
about the incident

This must be some new definition of the words 'secret'
and 'forgotten'. If you want another 'forgotten' incident consider
the loss of HMT Lancastria which was bombed and sunk
off St Nazaire with the loss of 3000 troops and 1000 civilians
in 1940

(One book about this sinking was also called "The Forgotten
Tragedy", In fact this title seems a rather popular one with authors
as I got about 100 hits on a search)

Keith

The is also the Bari poison gas incident that was covered-up during
the war. In that incident in Dec 1943 a Luftwaffe strike in the
Italian harbor sunk 17 ships including a Liberty ship loaded with
mustard gas shells which killed both the crew (over 1000) and several
thousand civilians on land as the gas was released in the air.
The Bari strike was known at the time as the "mini Pearl Harbor" and
quickly covered up.
Got anything else to say, Keith? It may not be "secret" anymore, but
it is not well known. Yet you put the guy down for asking a good
question.


No I poked a little gentle fun at shock horror book titles
by pointing out that it is not unknown or secret but has been known
about for many years and there have been dozens of articles and
several books written on the subject.

The sad reality is that it was just one of the many such disasters that
happened in WW2.

Keith

(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message ...
In article ,
robert arndt wrote:
(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Thomas W Ping wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly

The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the

The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
there is no record of any being tried in combat.

This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
it was I saw it..

IIRC the idea was dropped as it was thought that improvements in AA
weapons (probably the multiple pom-pom) made it obsolete, though
I'm sure I've read that there were similar proposals in the 1930s,
probably after the Queen Bee firing trials where it proved very hard to
actually hit an aeroplane (as opposed to putting the pilot off,
which was what most AA fire of that era did).

Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
vunerability to jamming.


The Germans never seem to have been overly concerned with Jaming of
the
Kehl-Strasbourg tramitter-Receiver pair used on Both Fritz-X and the
Hs-293 apparently thinking that modification to the systems was only
necessary if "jamming reached 50%". I don't know how they mesured
that but I have the impression that jamming of both systems was very
difficult from the target area ship/bridge becuase of what looks like
directional yagi style antena on the rear of the missiles to me.
effectve Jamming required the Jammers to be installed on an opposing
aircraft so that the jamming energy could be fed into the main lobe of
the antena.

I also recall talk of some of the latter missiles being supplied and
used with wire guidence which was much more difficult to jam.

Both missiles could be used only when their was no effective fighter
opposition or heavy Flak since the launch aircraft had to fly a steady
course thus due to both Jamming and the vulnerability of the Launch
aircraft the system was usable only in the absence of fighter
opposition.

A TV guided version with or without wire known as the Hs293D might
have changed that.

I have a vague recollection of reasding somehwere that a lash-up
jamming system involving tuning to the VHF guidance channel and using
an electric razor as the jamming source actually worked. Whether the
razor's noise was used to feed a mike or they actually wired the hash
from its drive system to modulate the VHF signal - I can't remember. I
do have some books with pictures of WW2 ships with jamming antennae on
the yardarms.
FWIW the USN used radar guided glide bombs against Japanese shipping.
I believe the Bat had its own radar T/R unit to guide it to the
target. Then there were the Azon and Razon gided bombs, steered from
the bomber somewhat like the 293. They were used in Burma to hit rail
lines and bridges.
Way back when was the Kettering 'Bug' - a US 'cruise missile' of WW1.
Like the V1 it was 'D/R' guided.
Walt BJ