Spins

"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in
news:7e5db3ce8f0d3@uwe:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Have you ever had to put down with no power, by the way?

Only about 700 times!

696 were kind of expected to go that way, though.

Bertie

kinda curious

What kind of flying are you doing where you're expecting to be letting
down w/o power?

I mean, for me its actually 100%


Well, the relatively large number should have been a bit of a clue!

Gliders.

The others weren't that dramatic really.

Bertie

wrote:
On Jan 17, 5:49 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 17, 5:22 pm, Bob Moore wrote:
wrote
The 172 N Model I fly from time to time is only approved (and thus was
only tested) for spins when CG falls within the utility category.
Though it may be recovered from a spin when loaded within the normal
category range, it was not certificated that way. Which tells me there
is no assurance of recovery.
BULL****!!
Section 23.221: Spinning.
(a) Normal category airplanes. A single-engine, normal category airplane
must be able to recover from a one-turn spin or a three-second spin,
whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn after
initiation of the first control action for recovery, or demonstrate
compliance with the optional spin resistant requirements of this
section.
(1) The following apply to one turn or three second spins:
(i) For both the flaps-retracted and flaps-extended conditions, the
applicable airspeed limit and positive limit maneuvering load factor
must not be exceeded;
(ii) No control forces or characteristic encountered during the spin or
recovery may adversely affect prompt recovery;
(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use
of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or
during the spin;
I would suggest that you read the entire FAR section 23.221 for Normal,
Utility, and Aerobatic category aircraft.
Bob Moore
ATP CFI
I've read the FARs.
I've also read the POH, which states "Spins approved when loaded
within utility category."
I'll see your Bullchip and raise you three chickships.
Dan
Dan
You're arguing with the wrong guy Dan, and you are going to lose your
three chickships whatever the heck they are :-)))

. Bob's right and you are wrong. You seem to be hung up on the fact that
because the POH states that spins are approved only in the Utility
category, that this means the airplane can't be spun in the Normal
Category. This simply is not true AERODYNAMICALLY which is the ONLY
context we are discussing here. LEGALLY it can't be spun in the Normal
Category but otherwise it will spin just fine in the Normal Category;
unless you have an aft cg issue and then it's up for grabs either normal
or utility category.
Naturally, if your 172's POH says that spins are not approved in the
Normal Category, that's exactly what it means. It means that spins are
not APPROVED in the Normal Category.


Whoa there, pardner...

Let's back to flame train up.

First, I'm not accepting anyone's statement because of "who he/she
is." If it's reasonable and/or proven, I'll weigh it and accept it or
reject it (to my advantage or peril, but so be it). I would hope
anyone posting/reading a newsgroup about aviation would take this
approach.

Now, my point regarding spins is that I have no *assurance*
(aerodynamically or legally) from anyone that the airplane will
recover when flown with CG in the Normal range (FARS notwithstanding
-- The fact that the airplane met the requirements of the FAR for
certification tells me that the manufacturer certified to the letter
of the law with an experienced pilot in ideal conditions. Neither the
manufacturer nor anyone else will stand by the capability outside a
certain narrowly defined range).

I have assurance in the POH that the airplane can recover when CG is
within the utility range.

I am not a test pilot (and haven't even played one on TV), thus should
not intentionally or unintentionally enter a spin in this airplane
when CG load is outside the utility category.

Now, while it may be the case that the airplane will recover in that
condition, that is speculation to me and anyone else until proved
otherwise in a fairly dangerous experiment in test piloting.

To recap, since the discussion has blurred:

Will a pilot who has been through spin training be better prepared if
a spin should occur? Probably.

Will the appropriate PARE reaction recover most airplanes from an
incipient spin? Most likely.

Does this establish that spin training is essential to PPL training?

Not really.

Dan

Anything you say Dan.
Thank you


--
Dudley Henriques

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
news
wrote:
On Jan 17, 4:34 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in
:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:40:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?
Spins are not allowed in the planes available for rent at the
airport from which I fly, probably because they are in two cases
more than sixty years old.
J-3s are actually kinda difficult to get to spin anyway. They'll
do it, but with two up they need a bit of coaxing. not great for
incipient spin training.
Best airplane for it ever was one of my old luscombes. I took the
washout out of the wing to make it go faster, which works, BTW.
and as a result, the airplane was , um, interesting to stall. It
was absolutely impossible to stall without a big wing drop. Doing
a falling leaf was like clog dancing. if you let it go at al it
was on it's back in no time. It was also a very early one with
the more difficult ground handling whic, in addition to the "Fun
with Stalls" habit earned it the name "the humiliater" It was
considered an excellent primer for homebuilts. Great airplnae and
it's still flying, though i think with a bit of washout now.
Bertie
The Silvaire was a joy to spin. Snappy little bird!
The best spin entry for the J3 is to start a 1g stall carrying
just a tad of power. then just before the stall break, acellerate
it up and in with back stick and a shot of power for the rudder.
Then imm ediately off the power, hard pro spin rudder and full
back stick. Fun for all involved :-))
Yeah, pretty much exactly as I did it. Not so good for teaching
incipient spins when it looks so difficult to get into one!
I can't remember how easy they were to provoke with say, a stepp
turn, but I can't imagine they'd be all that much more likely to
depart form one of those either. It was a lot better solo form the
rear seat, though.
Bertie
Yeah. I always flew the J3 from the back as well. In fact, the one
we had available was back seat solo only. Talk about fun....I flew
that damn thing all the way down the East Coast one spring when I
had a month off to myself. Most of the way I was several hundred
yards off shore. The weather was warm and I had the upper panel open
most of the trip. Every now and then I would throttle back to idle
and try shouting at people down below. I saw them shout back but to
tell you the truth I never heard a word they were saying :-)
Ended up at Key West, stayed several days, island hopped a bit then
flew it home again.
One of the best aviation experiences I ever had really. It's funny
when you stop to think about it. Of all the fancy airplanes that
crossed my path in life, that little J3 and that trip down the coast
would be right up there at the top of the heap for just plain fun
with an airplane.

--
Dudley Henriques
Sounds like fun! Makes me wonder if being a banner tower would be so
bad?? Hours of slow flight along the beach?

After reading Rinker buck's "Flight of Passage" all I wanted to do
was replicate that flight.

Flying Pittsburgh to Phoenix in an A36 in 10 hours wasn't the
same....

Dan
Back in the (old days a lot of new commercial pilots tried the
banner towing game. It seemed the banner outfits were always looking
for new pilots. (Something in that somewhere for smart people I think
:-)

I never did any towing, but a lot of those who did informed me that
they learned fairly fast that it wasn't the easiest game in town. Many
of the airplanes being used were VERY old. One outfit down in Atlantic
City were using old Navy N3N's


Flew a few of those as well.They were OK.No ball of fire and no
Stearman, but adequate. Better than a Cub, I thought at the time.

Guess where?

Believe it or not, I think Andre is still alive ( He was Cape May based,
BTW, with a small branch operation at Bader)

and towing with these crates meant that
much of the time you were riding the ragged edge on the left side of
the envelope.
It was good work for the learning involved and great training for
those who did it.


Yeah, and it was relatively safe. You crash pretty slow in a Cub.

Bertie

The name Blackie seems to stick in my mind for the Cape May operation.
Am I far off because I never actually met the guy?.


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:





Yeah, and it was relatively safe. You crash pretty slow in a Cub.

Bertie

The name Blackie seems to stick in my mind for the Cape May operation.
Am I far off because I never actually met the guy?.



Oh God you're before my time!

I've heard of him.

There was a Mustang based there as well. It flew regularly, too. They guy
gave rides for the then astronomical sum of fifty bucks. Still kicking
myself for not taking a ride..


Bertie

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote

I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Someone did that at OSH a few years back. 2001?
--
Jim in NC

On Jan 17, 6:00*am, " wrote:
On Jan 17, 3:23 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of the old guys didn't know what they were
talking about either. I've met a few.
*But it's true the direction has changed and not alwasys for the better.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:



Yeah, and it was relatively safe. You crash pretty slow in a Cub.

Bertie

The name Blackie seems to stick in my mind for the Cape May operation.
Am I far off because I never actually met the guy?.



Oh God you're before my time!

I've heard of him.

There was a Mustang based there as well. It flew regularly, too. They guy
gave rides for the then astronomical sum of fifty bucks. Still kicking
myself for not taking a ride..


Bertie
That would have been Jack Shaver's airplane. Jack ran the commuter out
of Bader for a while. He loved that 51!!

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:



Yeah, and it was relatively safe. You crash pretty slow in a Cub.

Bertie

The name Blackie seems to stick in my mind for the Cape May
operation. Am I far off because I never actually met the guy?.



Oh God you're before my time!

I've heard of him.

There was a Mustang based there as well. It flew regularly, too. They
guy gave rides for the then astronomical sum of fifty bucks. Still
kicking myself for not taking a ride..


Bertie
That would have been Jack Shaver's airplane. Jack ran the commuter out
of Bader for a while. He loved that 51!!


Yep, that's right. I remember the name now. It was Don something or
another running the commuter at the time, though. Maybe he ws a silent
partner or something. SJA, right? Had a bunch of Twin Otters. i think
they started out with Volpar 18s though.



Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in news:Xns9A2928BE93316****upropeeh@
207.14.116.130:

Dudley Henriques wrote in

Yep, that's right. I remember the name now. It was Don something or
another running the commuter at the time, though.

Don Young

Bertie

In the three hour course I and many other instructors I've trained
teach, pilots will end up doing 20 or so spin entries/recoveries.
Sure, they'll do intentional 1- and 2-turn spins. But they'll also
experience aggravated spin modes. They'll recover from spins entered
from many different attitudes and configurations. And they'll perform
numerous spin recognition/prevention exercises.

An earlier post made note of an unintentional spin that happened
during a steep turn, 70 degrees, where the aircraft rolled over
opposite and entered the spin. In your training program are entries of
that sort demonstrated/practiced? Any ohter kind of "unintentional
entries"?

It seems like much is written in books and on this thread about how
unintentional entries occur. Spending some time in those situations to
understand them with prevention in mind (especially letting it go
until you do enter the spin) seems like valuable training to me. I'm
thinking of the skidding turn onto final, for instance.