Is this the death of GA

"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:OMfxj.52129$9j6.4081@attbi_s22:

But as a general rule, having trucks driving around an airport
pouring their
expensive product into aircraft unable to carry the weight under some
mission
statements is not compatible with sound management and safety
practices.

I'm not catching your point. Why would an FBO do anything an owner
didn't authorize?

Idiot.


Bertie

Jay Honeck wrote:

Now, you're telling me that refueling an airplane from a
professionally-built fuel truck, properly grounded, with the big door
open, is DANGEROUS? I find it hard that anyone so risk averse actually
flies in an airplane. Those things crash, you know.

Having spent a couple of years as an airport manager I am not
speaking out of ignorance. I'm surprised that you don't seem
to be able see the potential dangers. I strongly suggest that
you and the airport manager have a chat with you local fire
marshal, your fuel supplier and your insurance underwriter before
you continue that activity.

It is dangerous to even fuel a lawn mower in your garage because
of the enclosed space, and the risk of a devastating fire in
the even of a fuel spill.

Check with any authority on the subject and see if they don't
tell you the same thing.

Good luck.

Jay Honeck wrote:


I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let the
fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another jug
under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens until
the tank is empty.


Don't they bond the aircraft to the fuel container (electrically)? I met
an A&P/IA several years ago that lost his hangar and 3 of his customers'
airplanes by doing exactly what you described above. It was a dry winter day
and the flowing fuel formed a static charge. A faint blue ring around the
stream of gas that the IA noticed about 2 seconds before the hangar went up
in flames.

A simple bonding strap between the airplane and the container would have
avoided the whole mess.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200802/1

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in
news:805fe25d28088@uwe:

Jay Honeck wrote:


I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew
the quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug,
and let the fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly
move another jug under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar
floor. This happens until the tank is empty.


Don't they bond the aircraft to the fuel container (electrically)?
I met
an A&P/IA several years ago that lost his hangar and 3 of his
customers' airplanes by doing exactly what you described above. It
was a dry winter day and the flowing fuel formed a static charge. A
faint blue ring around the stream of gas that the IA noticed about 2
seconds before the hangar went up in flames.

A simple bonding strap between the airplane and the container would
have
avoided the whole mess.

Exactly, I have a freind who has some very wrinkly looking skin from
defueling an old mercedes in a garage...


Bertie

"Jay Honeck" wrote

Have you ever WORKED on a plane, in a shop? Have you ever had to de-fuel
a plane to work on it? Where do you think this happens?

I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let
the fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another
jug under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens
until the tank is empty.

This goes on day after day, week after week, year after year, at hundreds
of airports across America. WITH THE DOOR CLOSED. God almighty, if we
were to believe your nonsense, the newspapers would be full of 5-alarm
fires at airports.

The difference in fueling or defueling an airplane in a hangar is how the
hangar is equipped.

It is against fire code to construct an aircraft or perform major
maintenance in a hangar that is not equipped with a sprinkler system. I
know this, because our local EAA chapter has been looking into constructing
a hangar, and to do more than final assembly will not be allowed without
sprinklers, which of course costs big money.

The risk of a fire from fueling an airplane or working on the fuel system is
the same in any hangar, but it is how the risk is managed if a fire results.
Putting a fire out when it first happens may mean the result is saving lives
and property.

To satisfy fire code, fueling and defueling should be done outside, where
there is no possibility of the potentially explosive vapors concentrating to
a dangerous level. If a fire does result, it will likely not be an
explosive event, and will leave those involved with the ability to get away
from the fire quickly, and will also likely not catch anything else on fire.

Isn't that what all fire codes are about? The tradeoffs between prevention,
protection, and suppression.

So while you do not feel that fueling in a hangar is a risk, it is to a fire
marshal, and his regulations say that if you choose to participate in this
risky behavior, you must prevent the possible result from getting out of
hand. That means install sprinklers, at minimum.
--
Jim in NC

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:54:18 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:



It is against fire code to construct an aircraft or perform major
maintenance in a hangar that is not equipped with a sprinkler system. I
know this, because our local EAA chapter has been looking into constructing
a hangar, and to do more than final assembly will not be allowed without
sprinklers, which of course costs big money.

Is that a local code? Neither of the A&P's I use have sprinklers,
and they run legit businesses that do major repairs.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:54:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

Here even with our small airport it's not permitted.
Over at MBS they move planes outside to de fuel them. They did that
when I had the Deb weighed for a new W&B.

OTOH we can build plane in the hangars. If the hangar is properly
ventilated we can even paint in it...I only know of one so equipped
and it's prohibited in all others. More than likely due to the fact
you'd be painting planes three hangars either side of you. (they
aren't real tight)


Ya know, Kontiki, normally I agree with your posts -- but this is just plain
crap.

Have you ever WORKED on a plane, in a shop? Have you ever had to de-fuel a
plane to work on it? Where do you think this happens?

I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let the
fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another jug
under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens until
the tank is empty.

It's done ,but in most places it's against the fire code.
The FBO changed a quick drain on one of the tanks on the Deb at
annual. He just unscrewed it and I stuck my finger in the dike until
he had the new one lined up and ready to go. He even remarked we
should be doing that outdoors, but he didn't want to move so many
planes to get it out and back in.


This goes on day after day, week after week, year after year, at hundreds of
airports across America. WITH THE DOOR CLOSED. God almighty, if we were
to believe your nonsense, the newspapers would be full of 5-alarm fires at
airports.

Now, you're telling me that refueling an airplane from a
professionally-built fuel truck, properly grounded, with the big door open,
is DANGEROUS? I find it hard that anyone so risk averse actually flies in
an airplane. Those things crash, you know.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:54:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

Here even with our small airport it's not permitted.
Over at MBS they move planes outside to de fuel them. They did that
when I had the Deb weighed for a new W&B.

OTOH we can build plane in the hangars. If the hangar is properly
ventilated we can even paint in it...I only know of one so equipped
and it's prohibited in all others. More than likely due to the fact
you'd be painting planes three hangars either side of you. (they
aren't real tight)


Ya know, Kontiki, normally I agree with your posts -- but this is just
plain
crap.

Have you ever WORKED on a plane, in a shop? Have you ever had to de-fuel
a
plane to work on it? Where do you think this happens?

I'll tell you where it happens -- in the shop hangar. They unscrew the
quick drain, stick a plastic funnel into a 5-gallon plastic jug, and let
the
fuel drain. Then, when that jug is full, they quickly move another jug
under the funnel, dumping gas all over the hangar floor. This happens
until
the tank is empty.

It's done ,but in most places it's against the fire code.
The FBO changed a quick drain on one of the tanks on the Deb at
annual. He just unscrewed it and I stuck my finger in the dike until
he had the new one lined up and ready to go. He even remarked we
should be doing that outdoors, but he didn't want to move so many
planes to get it out and back in.


This goes on day after day, week after week, year after year, at hundreds
of
airports across America. WITH THE DOOR CLOSED. God almighty, if we were
to believe your nonsense, the newspapers would be full of 5-alarm fires at
airports.

Now, you're telling me that refueling an airplane from a
professionally-built fuel truck, properly grounded, with the big door
open,
is DANGEROUS? I find it hard that anyone so risk averse actually flies in
an airplane. Those things crash, you know.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


In case you haven't noticed, the death of aviation has already occurred. It
happened with all the law suits, rising cost of gas prices and scab CFI's
that will fly for nothing. I've been in the industry for over 45 years.
They say there is a lot of money in aviation. I know that because I put a
lot of it in there! I am appalled that you can't make a decent living in
the industry. Oh yes, there are a few souls that have made it, but it's
like the lotto, not a planned definite process. I can't believe that I have
spent so much time and money in the industry and can't make it there. In
what other industry can you invest almost $100k in training and experience
achieve, what is called "the PhD of Aviation, the ATP", all the CFI's
offered by the FAA and still can't command more then minimum wags?? The
AOPA, FAA, NAFI and defunct organizations such as NPA, etc have all fallen
down on the job, BIG TIME. All useless to foster the community. I go into
a flight school and immediately get the feeling that "I don't want to be
here". You do not feel welcome! All these managers need serious marketing
and business education. And pilots need to start DEMANDING a living wage,
or just don't fly. Students need to expect to PAY for training, $100 per hr
for an instructor is not unreasonable. This about how much you would pay any
other professional. How much would you pay a plumber. Then think about how
much you pay a CFI and gripe about it! NUTS.

--
BobF.
Lincoln actually got it right but was way ahead of his time when he said,
"You can have some of you computer working all of the time and all of your
computer working some of the time but..." It was he that said that, wasn't
it?

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:54:18 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:



It is against fire code to construct an aircraft or perform major
maintenance in a hangar that is not equipped with a sprinkler system. I
know this, because our local EAA chapter has been looking into
constructing
a hangar, and to do more than final assembly will not be allowed without
sprinklers, which of course costs big money.

Is that a local code? Neither of the A&P's I use have sprinklers,
and they run legit businesses that do major repairs.

As far as I know, NC fire code. Could be that an older building is
grandfathered in, but to build new, there was no doubt that there would have
to be sprinklers.
--
Jim in NC

Don't they bond the aircraft to the fuel container (electrically)?

No.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"