Wow

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting the wing
down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never taught how to do a
crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed at how many airline pilots
beleive that this is the way to do it... Mostly, they get away with it.
The crosswind doesn't appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle,
I'd reckon the max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well
within the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the
flare.

I don't know if it's accurate or not, but I read that they were on
Runway 23 and the wind was 29029G43.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg


Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people as an
example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem before
realizing it isn't going to solve using existing control authority.
Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo from the Chief
Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.


Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting the wing
down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never taught how to do a
crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed at how many airline pilots
beleive that this is the way to do it... Mostly, they get away with it.
The crosswind doesn't appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle,
I'd reckon the max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well
within the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the
flare.

Bertie

Bertie


I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the wind offset
with gust factor well outside his capabilities.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...


It's a swept wing. When you kick it left with rudder the right wing moves
forward to a straight wing configuration and lift increases, wing goes up.
Thus the left roll.

Same thing for the left wing. Except it looses lift.

"Curator" N185KG

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...ename=phpOltUW
B.jpg



Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...

Watched the video and it looked like he tried to
kick it straight with the ailerons instead of the
rudder. Am I missing something?

You can't generate much yaw with aileron. The pilot did generate a
fair amount of left yaw (either using rudder or the left brake), which
(combined with the crosswind) gave him a nasty left roll. It looked
like he applied a lot of right aileron before he drug the wingtip, but
it wasn't enough. A boot full of right rudder at that point might
have kept him from dragging the wingtip, but that would have worsened
his already bad runway alignment problem.

That's it. here's a well known video full of x-wind landings. Some good ,
some bad.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f78_1184881277

Note the 747 at about 1:45 THat airplane has to land pretty much wings
level and the technique is well done here. There is some yaw introduced at
about 100 feet, probably as an adjustment for tracking rather than to
align. The lion's share is not eliminated until after touchdown and the
observer will notice a large amount of left aileron is simultaneously
introduced.
It can be seen that the touchdown is achieved with some drift going on,
which is just something that has to be lived with if you can't touch down
slipping. It works, but it's messy and to be avoided if possible.

On Mar 2, 5:25*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...name=phpOltUWB....

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it straight"
when they land, like this guy did, show em this...

Bertie

Remnds me of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9M3m1U-QYA
I can watch tis all day.

Wil

Shirl wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting the
wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never taught how to
do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed at how many airline
pilots beleive that this is the way to do it... Mostly, they get away
with it. The crosswind doesn't appear to be all that bad. From the
drift angle, I'd reckon the max compnenet to be under thirty knots
and steady. Well within the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in
trouble until the flare.

I don't know if it's accurate or not, but I read that they were on
Runway 23 and the wind was 29029G43.



Well, that makes the component about 25 gusting 37 across, which should be
manageable. Well, obviously it must be within demonstratd for the airplane
or he wouldn't have attempted the approach. The drift angle certainly gives
the appearance of a reasonable cosswind. I've been to Hamburg and it's flat
and 23 is pretty clear on the side of the runway the wind was blowing. I
wonder why they didn't use 31.


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
.jpg


Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...



Bertie
I just sent this out this afternoon to our human factors people as
an example of how deeply a pilot has to fly into a problem before
realizing it isn't going to solve using existing control authority.
Absolutely amazing! This guy is on the way to a memo from the Chief
Pilot's office fairly soon I would imagine.
Glad they made it out of there.


Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting the
wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never taught how to
do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed at how many airline
pilots beleive that this is the way to do it... Mostly, they get away
with it. The crosswind doesn't appear to be all that bad. From the
drift angle, I'd reckon the max compnenet to be under thirty knots
and steady. Well within the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in
trouble until the flare.

Bertie

Bertie


I don't have the official wind figures, but I would make the wind
offset with gust factor well outside his capabilities.

Doesn't look like it to me. Most moderns are demonstrated at 40 knots.
Even the older ones can do 30 or 35 with no problem, and that;'s just
the demonstrated. The 757 is easy, and I mean really easy, in winds
approaching 40, although it's easy to get a PIO going with the ailerons
in turbulence in it. If the other poster's info is correct, it shouldn;t
have come to what it did. I dont see any effort on the pilot's part to
put the right wing down at all.
Having said that, it's a 'bus and it might not have allowd the pilot to
do what he wanted to.
In any case, crossposting his wasn't to make the crw look foolish. I
just thought the video neatly illustrated the dynamics of a crosswind
landing gone wrong very nicely, whatever caused it. A lot of people use
a similar technique and, close to the limit, it will end up looking
pretty much like this...




Bertie

"karl mcgruber" skywagon wrote in
:



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...


It's a swept wing. When you kick it left with rudder the right wing
moves forward to a straight wing configuration and lift increases,
wing goes up. Thus the left roll.

But there is plenty of roll control available to stop that and command a
roll in the opposite direction.


Bertie

On Mar 2, 7:13*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Kyle Boatright" wrote :







"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
. ..
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...ename=phpOltUW
B.jpg

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight" when they land, like this guy did, show em this...

Watched the video and it looked like he tried to
kick it straight with the ailerons instead of the
rudder. *Am I missing something?

You can't generate much yaw with aileron. *The pilot did generate a
fair amount of left yaw (either using rudder or the left brake), which
(combined with the crosswind) gave him a nasty left roll. *It looked
like he applied a lot of right aileron before he drug the wingtip, but
it wasn't enough. *A boot full of right rudder at that point might
have kept him from dragging the wingtip, but that would have worsened
his already bad runway alignment problem.

That's it. here's a well known video full of x-wind landings. Some good ,
some bad.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f78_1184881277

Note the 747 at about 1:45 THat airplane has to land pretty much wings
level and the technique is well done here. There is some yaw introduced at
about 100 feet, probably as an adjustment for tracking rather than to
align. The lion's share is not eliminated until after touchdown and the
observer will notice a large amount of left aileron is simultaneously
introduced.
It can be seen that the touchdown is achieved with some drift going on,
which is just something that has to be lived with if you can't touch down
slipping. It works, but it's messy and to be avoided if possible.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do the 747s have crabbing gears?

Wil

William Hung wrote in
:

On Mar 2, 5:25*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
...

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick it
straight"

when they land, like this guy did, show em this...

Bertie

Remnds me of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9M3m1U-QYA
I can watch tis all day.


Yeah, they are kicking i straight, though they are laying off a bit of
the drift by getting the wing down as the flare. The first one has th
edownwind wing donw slightly. Remember that this exercise is intended to
demonstrate what the airplane is capable of and not to develop
technique. I have a frined who flies the 777 and he tells me it flies
just like an airplane. His first line flight to LHR had mih landing in a
strong crosswind. The trainer next to him asked if he would prefer that
he do th elanding, but my friend pressed on and found it easy.
Note that in each touchdown, the alignment takes place after touchdown,
and that th etouchdonw is positive. the yaw towards alignment is done
smoothly and though you can't see it, they are almost certainly
introducing full aileron ( smoothly) to keep the wing down and to
introduce some very welcome adverse yaw.We used to have to land the 727
like this and though it felt absolutley awful, it worked OK.

Bertie