Bothering a Pilot on Final

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:59:51 -0700 (PDT), Tina wrote:

My personal favorite, and this was the tower at KBED, is we were
flying the ILS into 11 at KBED, at night, ceiling was said to be 300
feet or so, and half way in from the OM tower asked for the landing
light. Can you think of a better way to ruin night vision than
lighting up the inside of a cloud?

Just don't inhale.

"Hanscom Tower, we'll wait until we break out."

lol

Larry Dighera wrote:


The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.



What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.

On Thu, 29 May 2008 10:21:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:


The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.



What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.


Indeed. I overlooked that.

I guess I didn't expect to see CTAF mentioned under UNICOM.


The AIM hast this definition of UNICOM stations:

e. Information Provided by Aeronautical Advisory Stations (UNICOM)

1. UNICOM is a nongovernment air/ground radio communication
station which may provide airport information at public use
airports where there is no tower or FSS.


And the Pilot/Controller Glossary provides this definition of CTAF:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...pubs/PCG/C.HTM
COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY FREQUENCY (CTAF)- A frequency designed for
the purpose of carrying out airport advisory practices while
operating to or from an airport without an operating control
tower. The CTAF may be a UNICOM, Multicom, FSS, or tower frequency
and is identified in appropriate aeronautical publications.

(Refer to AC 90-42, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers.)

(neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 1 definitions)

So while the CTAF _frequency_ may be a UNICOM frequency also, I always
considered UNICOM stations to be manned, while I apparently
erroneously considered radio operation on CTAF frequencies to be
limited to one-way self-announced position and intention broadcasts.
Obviously CTAF is only so limited when there is neither an operating
UNICOM nor FSS station at the field.

Despite my confusion over the nomenclature, these documents seem to be
the sole guidance concerning announcing overflight intentions provided
by FAA. Neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 91.

On May 29, 8:06 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 09:52:44 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote in
:

If crossing high enough that you are well out of the transition area
where someone coming out of or descending into an uncontrolled airport
would be, no need to say anything.

If however, you were crossing en route above the pattern altitude but
inside the area right above that....say to within a thousand feet above,
where aircraft entering or leaving the area might be present, it's a
good idea to let the airport know who you are where you are and where
you're headed.

The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...ry/rgAdvisoryC...
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
(1) Select the correct CTAF frequency.
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.

The AIM also mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over flight intent,
and while stating intentions on CTAF is mentioned in 4-1-9(g)(1), I
find no mention of broadcasting over flight intent on CTAF:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...ications/atpub...
4-1-9. Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating
Control Towers

g. Self-Announce Position and/or Intentions

1. General. Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast
their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on
the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports
which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce
procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate
with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in
the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce
Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any
condition.

So, announcing intent to over fly an airport on CTAF is a bit
ambiguous. As you have indicated, if it seems prudent, do it.

Where we flew we used ettiquette.
Example: We're approaching an airport and at 5 miles,
we'd radio tower "Yankee Yankee Golf approaching
from the XXX, intends to enter the circuit.
I'd hear, "Roger, your clear".

Next I'd key radio just before doing my 30 degree
bank to get into the down-wind, so the controller
can get an easy visual of me, "YYG turning onto
downwind". Same for every other turn, to final.

Radio work is 1st for the controller, and secondly
for other a/c, he's the boss.
Ken

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 10:21:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.


What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.


Indeed. I overlooked that.

I guess I didn't expect to see CTAF mentioned under UNICOM.


The AIM hast this definition of UNICOM stations:

e. Information Provided by Aeronautical Advisory Stations (UNICOM)

1. UNICOM is a nongovernment air/ground radio communication
station which may provide airport information at public use
airports where there is no tower or FSS.


And the Pilot/Controller Glossary provides this definition of CTAF:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...pubs/PCG/C.HTM
COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY FREQUENCY (CTAF)- A frequency designed for
the purpose of carrying out airport advisory practices while
operating to or from an airport without an operating control
tower. The CTAF may be a UNICOM, Multicom, FSS, or tower frequency
and is identified in appropriate aeronautical publications.

(Refer to AC 90-42, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers.)

(neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 1 definitions)

So while the CTAF _frequency_ may be a UNICOM frequency also, I always
considered UNICOM stations to be manned, while I apparently
erroneously considered radio operation on CTAF frequencies to be
limited to one-way self-announced position and intention broadcasts.
Obviously CTAF is only so limited when there is neither an operating
UNICOM nor FSS station at the field.

Despite my confusion over the nomenclature, these documents seem to be
the sole guidance concerning announcing overflight intentions provided
by FAA. Neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 91.

I did some Googleing of CTAF/UNICOM on Arinav and there are 6100 hits
for that exact phrase. I've not flown to a huge number of airports in my
career of flying but most of them have been uncontrolled fields and I
can't remember a single one since the first big reduction of FSS that
didn't use the Unicom as the CTAF.

On 2008-05-27 11:34:06 -0700, Larry Dighera said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 10:15:57 -0700 (PDT), gliderguynj
wrote in
:

I understand the person was trying to be helpful but.....

The FAA regulations and Advisory Circulars only mention broadcasting
position on CTAF. There is no mention of communicating air-to-air.

I know CTAF is being used for almost everything but that for which it
is intended. But that doesn't make it okay.

Personally, I limit my CTAF transmissions to announcing my position,
and nothing else.

Personally, I have better things to do than to worry about what other
pilots are saying on the radio.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On May 28, 8:49*am, Jay Maynard
wrote:
On 2008-05-28, Jay Honeck wrote:

I really like are the guys who announce that they're "over-flying the field
at 4500 feet, heading West..."

I hadn't heard that until I started listening to the Fairmont CTAF. What's
the point?

4500 feet is probably a bit high to announce but when I was flying the
Aeronca I would announce over flying fields because I was usually only
500 feet over pattern altitude (the Aeronca didn't like going high).
Its helpful to pilots entering and leaving the pattern to know there
is someone right above them.I would always try to cross directly over
if I had to fly by the airport because there is less traffic over the
top.

-Robert, CFII

In article ,
"Viperdoc" wrote:


When giving rides to new pax, I brief them on the sterile cockpit concept,
and tell them unless there's another plane bearing down on us, or our own
plane has parts falling off or we are on fire, they should keep quiet.

When I bought the airplane the wife was "okay" with flying (she was an
avid skydiver" but not super comfortable. As time went on she began to
enjoy flying as much as jumping. As I built experience we elected to
start going "off airport" and expand our area of operation and
enjoyment. Now the wife became so comfortable she tended to chat all the
time. For me it became a little distracting -since being an experience
husband I know that not acknowledging something the wife says can have
dire results - yet I need to concentrate when sticking the 182 into a
short strip somewhere so I asked that she refrain from talking during
takeoff and landing. Well, one day we were looking for a strip I'd seen
another 182 go into. I found a new set of tire tracks that didn't have
any wreckage on either end (hey, he HE can do it I can do it) and
thought I'd found the 182 strip. It looked a little short but as I said
no wreckage so it must be ok. I did a low pass to check the surface and
during the pass the wife started to say something but cut herself off.
I'm thinking allright, she's going to comply!! G I went around and
came back to land. The strip was short - 540', shortest thing I'd ever
been on. I was kind of animated but she was ho hum about it. I
remember she'd started to say something so asked what it was. She then
pointed out that just to the south of this strip was another stip --
about 1100 feet long of hard packed dried mud. G Needless to say the
1100 strip was the 182 strip. I also amended my sterile cockpit ruling
so "if we're going to die" you can talk. G

We went on to work a lot of short stuff and had a great time with our
182...and never left wreckage anywhere.

Here's one of them: http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flypics/ghmidfinal.jpg

On Thu, 29 May 2008 11:43:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 10:21:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.


What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.


Indeed. I overlooked that.

I guess I didn't expect to see CTAF mentioned under UNICOM.


The AIM hast this definition of UNICOM stations:

e. Information Provided by Aeronautical Advisory Stations (UNICOM)

1. UNICOM is a nongovernment air/ground radio communication
station which may provide airport information at public use
airports where there is no tower or FSS.


And the Pilot/Controller Glossary provides this definition of CTAF:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...pubs/PCG/C.HTM
COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY FREQUENCY (CTAF)- A frequency designed for
the purpose of carrying out airport advisory practices while
operating to or from an airport without an operating control
tower. The CTAF may be a UNICOM, Multicom, FSS, or tower frequency
and is identified in appropriate aeronautical publications.

(Refer to AC 90-42, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers.)

(neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 1 definitions)

So while the CTAF _frequency_ may be a UNICOM frequency also, I always
considered UNICOM stations to be manned, while I apparently
erroneously considered radio operation on CTAF frequencies to be
limited to one-way self-announced position and intention broadcasts.
Obviously CTAF is only so limited when there is neither an operating
UNICOM nor FSS station at the field.

Despite my confusion over the nomenclature, these documents seem to be
the sole guidance concerning announcing overflight intentions provided
by FAA. Neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 91.

I did some Googleing of CTAF/UNICOM on Arinav and there are 6100 hits
for that exact phrase. I've not flown to a huge number of airports in my
career of flying but most of them have been uncontrolled fields and I
can't remember a single one since the first big reduction of FSS that
didn't use the Unicom as the CTAF.

Agreed. However, the FAA documents I cited mention stating your
intention to over fly the field to UNICOM, which may coincidentally be
on the CTAF. I see no mention of self-announcing your intention to
over fly the field other than to UNICOM. That is my point.

Am I missing yours?

At any rate, the FAA documents don't appear to provide any guidance as
to the AGL altitude at which broadcasting a pilot's intention to over
fly the field might be inappropriate. Clearly when it's not a factor
for those flights arriving or departing, I see little need for it.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 11:43:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 10:21:17 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

The Advisory Circular mentions notifying UNICOM stations of over
flight of uncontrolled fields, but I find no mention of
self-announcing over flight intention on CTAF:

AC No: 9042F

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/c54e50252a7fa56d862569d8007804ba/$FILE/ac90-42F.pdf
10 . UNICOM COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES.
a. In communicating with a UNICOM station, the flowing practices
will help reduce frequency
congestion, facilitate a better understanding of pilot intentions,
help identify the location of aircraft in. the traffic pattern,
and enhance safety of flight:
-- (1) Select the correct CTAF frequency. --
(2) State the identification of the UNICOM station you are calling
in each transmission.
(3) Speak slowly and distinctly.
(4) Notify the UNICOM station approximately 10 miles from the
airport, reporting altitude, aircraft type, aircraft
identification, location relative to the airport, and whether
-- landing or overflight.
Request wind information and runway in use.
(5) Report on downwind, base, and final approach.
(6) Report leaving the runway.


What do you mean? It's mentioned in the step 1 of what you posted.

Indeed. I overlooked that.

I guess I didn't expect to see CTAF mentioned under UNICOM.


The AIM hast this definition of UNICOM stations:

e. Information Provided by Aeronautical Advisory Stations (UNICOM)

1. UNICOM is a nongovernment air/ground radio communication
station which may provide airport information at public use
airports where there is no tower or FSS.


And the Pilot/Controller Glossary provides this definition of CTAF:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...pubs/PCG/C.HTM
COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY FREQUENCY (CTAF)- A frequency designed for
the purpose of carrying out airport advisory practices while
operating to or from an airport without an operating control
tower. The CTAF may be a UNICOM, Multicom, FSS, or tower frequency
and is identified in appropriate aeronautical publications.

(Refer to AC 90-42, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers.)

(neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 1 definitions)

So while the CTAF _frequency_ may be a UNICOM frequency also, I always
considered UNICOM stations to be manned, while I apparently
erroneously considered radio operation on CTAF frequencies to be
limited to one-way self-announced position and intention broadcasts.
Obviously CTAF is only so limited when there is neither an operating
UNICOM nor FSS station at the field.

Despite my confusion over the nomenclature, these documents seem to be
the sole guidance concerning announcing overflight intentions provided
by FAA. Neither CTAF nor UNICOM are mentioned in Part 91.
I did some Googleing of CTAF/UNICOM on Arinav and there are 6100 hits
for that exact phrase. I've not flown to a huge number of airports in my
career of flying but most of them have been uncontrolled fields and I
can't remember a single one since the first big reduction of FSS that
didn't use the Unicom as the CTAF.

Agreed. However, the FAA documents I cited mention stating your
intention to over fly the field to UNICOM, which may coincidentally be
on the CTAF. I see no mention of self-announcing your intention to
over fly the field other than to UNICOM. That is my point.

Am I missing yours?

No I don't think you are. I think the folks missing the point is the
guys that wrote the AIM. CTAF can be Unicom, Multicom, FSS or an
inactive Tower Freq. For some reason they decided to put it under the
heading of Unicom.



At any rate, the FAA documents don't appear to provide any guidance as
to the AGL altitude at which broadcasting a pilot's intention to over
fly the field might be inappropriate. Clearly when it's not a factor
for those flights arriving or departing, I see little need for it.

I can see one other reason. Skydiving operations. Where I learned to fly
we didn't have much jumping. But at the next airport over they had it
going on every weekend and often during the week and I was taught it was
a good idea to announce when ever I was anywhere near the place weekend
or not.