Conventional v tricycle gear

On Jul 7, 11:42 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

if a nose up profile on the ground is such an advantage
why not just lengthen the front strut

Now that would be messy! You'd just have a wheelbarrow, then.

Trikes are full of compromises. Lengthen the nose strut (or
inflate it more)to get the prop up away from the rocks and guys who
land too fast will wheelbarrow it. So the manufacturer and the
mechanic both have to take poor airmanship into account.
Give me a taildragger. It won't forgive poor airmanship, so
that a pilot either smartens up or buys a boat.

Dan

On Jul 8, 10:49 am, John Smith wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 1:13 pm, John Smith wrote:

Be VERY, VERY careful when doing this on wet grass!
It gets real interesting when the tail is up, the brakes are on, and the
mains are sliding down the runway. :-0

Done that, in a 185, braking as hard as I could with the tail
way up. It'll stop much shorter than the POH says, even when the grass
is wet.

And the surprised look on your face at the time... priceless! :-))
(I know it probably was on mine.)

I was taught be a pro who'd been a bush pilot and a pilot in
Africa, flying with a relief organization that had high standards and
many difficult and seldom-seen techniques. They still do. He showed me
what it would do, then taught me the technique. I've used in in other
taildraggers, too, and it's not difficult if you're current, which I'm
not much anymore. Too little time flying and too much time fixing.
That's what you get when you spend an extra four years becoming an
engineer: the pilots who don't do all that extra work get to do all
the flying. Life seems unfair sometimes.

Dan

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 06:07:13 -0700, Du Haxen Hase
wrote:

In article , Stealth Pilot
says...

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:44 -0500, "Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net
wrote:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Dylan Smith wrote in
:

On 2008-07-07,
wrote:
If you look at most tail draggers, once the tail comes up the prop
clearance isn't significantly different than that of most trikes.

You don't need to let the tail come up in most tailwheel planes,
though. Taking off from rough/soft fields you're probably going to
want to keep the tail low throughout the takeoff run.


Which is probably the taildragger's biggest strength. A lot of control
over
your attitude and an ability to aply the best for performance at any given
moment.


Bertie

You're exactly right, that make no sense at all.

You sound more like Dudley every day.


maxwell I'm confused. which role in the troll attack are you taking?
are you in the first wave of loons or are you the extremist that makes
everyone seem normal?

I've forgotten. I must hunt down the battle plan again.
Stealth Pilot

Let me help with that...

http://ddi.digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html#item8

The Invasion FAQ of A.S.T.


Although not exactly a FAQ, this file is more of an explanation of why
alt.syntax.tactical and the tactical-list were created. It also lays
down the foundation for the structure, strategy, and protocol of USENET
invasions.


* Invasion *

Each of us brings our own reasons, backgrounds and motivations into
this scheme. What is important is that each individual brings into this
their own brand of inspired mischief. In some ways it is completely
innocent. In some ways it is completely destructive.

Anyone can walk into alt.sex and post that pornography should be
banned. Anyone can walk into rec.sport.baseball and say "baseball
sucks". It takes unbelievable skill and discipline to cause a PROLONGED
flame war. That is what we do. But it can only be done with talent, and
numbers to match that talent. We only bring into the fold people who
have the knack to use smarts to incite chaos, not stupidity to incite
being ignored when people see a post and know what you're up to.

To keep things running smoothly, Antebi is our 'moderator'. jpdavid was
responsible for creating the mailing-list and setting up the initial
newsgroup. Everyone is equal in suggesting and voting on invasion sites
and other basic day-to-day workings of the group. Everyone here gains
or loses merit only in the invasion arena.


* Waves of Invasion *


Flames and wars between groups are as old as Usenet. What we try to do
is in many ways fundamentally different from what is or has been done
in this area.

After picking a site, we call for an invasion on that site. There are a
number of phases to an invasion. Each person can volunteer for which
wave they want to be in, but more times than not, it is a first come-
first served policy. It is always important that no one jump the gun
and go in before we have time to prepare and bounce ideas off each
other. It's also important that people don't switch waves without
letting everyone know. Flexibility is the key, as is communication.

Typically, we use between two and five Waves of attack. Waves will
generally break down into this kind of structu

a: Reconnaissance (RECON): These people will go in early and usually
set up camp as "friends of the newsgroup". They will become trusted and
participate by joining previous discussions or starting non-
controversial ones themselves. They will also act as "double-agents" to
counter-flame the other waves as the invasion progresses. They key is
building a bit of credibility.

b: Wave One: Wave one will usually be what starts the flame war.
Those involved in this wave can go on and each have a different flame,
or go on and flame in unison. They can bring in a subject of their own
or flame a previous discussion. What matters is that this initial wave
will be the one that the invaded newsgroup will have their attention
on. This wave calls for extreme subtlety. The quality of the flame MUST
be at its highest point here.

c: Wave Two: Wave Two will consist of tactics to attack the people who
were sent in as recon and attempt to start totally new flame threads.
The key here is that even if we attack a group of people restrained
enough to resist our flame-bait, wave two will stir things up and get
others to join in.

d: Wave Three: Wave three will generally change depending on the
campaign, but will generally be added to push the confusion and chaos
over the top. Flame the recon, flame the first wave, flame the second
wave. These guys are our balls out, rude SOB's. Mop up and clean out.

Sometimes (usually with bigger groups) Wave three will simply be along
the lines of a wave two. We will call for a wave four (or five) to be
the balls out routine. We will sometimes add a wave or two because
depending on the size and intelligence of a newsgroup.

Miscellaneous Tactics:

There are three other things that we typically use, depending on
the sophistication of the invasion.

LOOSE CANNONS are people who come in and act so strange and obtuse that
it makes the rest of the flames look genuine.

THE ANON SERVICE can be used to send posts anonymously. This is a good
way to post and pretend to be scared of retribution. Only problem is
that this is usually the first sign that a post is a flame, so it
should only be used with a TREMENDOUS amount of DISCRETION.

CROSS POSTING is also a popular method of choice by other flame groups,
so it is important to Cross Post with discretion. If we can cross post
to bring in other newsgroups to unwittingly assist us, perfect. If we
cross post to suspicious newsgroups, our intentions will be obvious.

* Victory *

Ideally, signs of victory are the following:

o Our names appear in killfiles
o Majority or ALL threads in invaded newsgroup were started by us
o Regulars/legit people abandon invaded newsgroup
o Receive much hate mail - as does our SysAdmin
o To be reprimanded by the glorious SysAdmin

* Notes *

Most important is the need to be SUBTLE when it is required. One
misplaced post can ruin it for the rest of us. Those of you who have
participated in widespread flame wars know the feeling of having a
newsgroup going for a long time, then someone posts an obvious flame or
something so far out of context, that everyone says to just ignore the
flames, which eventually includes all of us. Blowing a flame war will
occasionally happen, but if it could have been avoided with a little
thinking, then it's not as excusable.

We've got to share duties. Everyone should get practice playing
different roles and different waves.

It has been assumed that if you don't want to participate, fine. No one
will hold it against you. What is expected is that if you don't want to
participate you don't have to, but that also means that you wont go
warning that newsgroup when an invasion happens. You will close your
eyes and turn a blind eye. NO NEWSGROUP IS OFF LIMITS!!!!!!

Another thing many people seem to be talking about are SIGS AND NAMES.
Try to take on appropriate names. If you are on alt.rap, D.J. Trouble
is not going to stir things up...if you show up on soc.culture.physics
with that name, you're caught before your first word of text. If a Sig
is going to blow your cover, lose it.

Official Kudos:

- under construction -

nothing clued up about maxie so he fails on the subtle.
so he may be wave 3.

a loose cannon is an exaggeration.
the protocol doesnt name popguns.

do you trolls reposess a dismal failure?

On Jul 8, 7:31 am, Stealth Pilot
wrote:

I flew nose wheel aircraft in my early years then did a tailwheel
endorsement in a bugger of an aircraft to land, the Auster.
Then I bough a Tailwind through a long convoluted process and have
flown it ever since.

I learned to fly taildraggers in an Auster VI. Towing
gliders. It went something like this: Two or three circuits, then the
other guy got out, I did another circuit, and then they connected the
glider and away I went. I later owned that airplane.

your question on experience levels misses something.
taking a Cessna 150 as the datum point, an Auster is a quantum leap
harder to land and takeoff well. in the air both are superb to fly.
the tailwind is a quantum harder again to fly.

I found the Auster to have all the handling qualitites of
a dump truck. It did have really good short-field performance,
especially that MkVI with those Zap flaps, but really heavy ailerons
just like its Taylorcraft ancestor. My Jodel is much more squirrelly.

Dan

On Jul 8, 9:31*am, Stealth Pilot
wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 05:43:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Other than the 'holier than thou' aspects of taildraggers and their
pilots, what are their real advantages? Has it to do with prop
clearance on unimproved fields, or fatter mains being better in that
same environment? Does anyone know if, with the same level of
experience pilots, they have a better or worse accident record when
compared to airplanes of the same general size that have the tailwheel
under the engine?

statistics are that the introduction of the nose wheel significantly
reduced accident rates.

I flew nose wheel aircraft in my early years then did a tailwheel
endorsement in a bugger of an aircraft to land, the Auster.
Then I bough a Tailwind through a long convoluted process and have
flown it ever since.

first misconception is that only tailwheel aircraft ground loop. if
you land on the nosewheel you can experience a far far more viscious
ground loop than you'll ever see in a taildragger.

your question on experience levels misses something.
taking a Cessna 150 as the datum point, an Auster is a quantum leap
harder to land and takeoff well. in the air both are superb to fly.
the tailwind is a quantum harder again to fly.
so what is lost in the details is that there arent as equally as
experienced pilots flying both. the taildragger pilot has had to
improve his general level of piloting considerably to appear mediocre
in a taildragger.

I love flying Cessnas, but having made the transition to Austers and
the W8 Tailwind I simply wouldnt want to not fly the taildraggers.
Snicking the daisies in the flare in a taildragger on a grass strip is
just the greatest satisfaction.

btw keep that mooney of yours on the bitumen or you'll prang it.

(now let me get this right. you are one of the first wave decoys
attacking this newsgroup arent you? )
Stealth Pilot

I've no intention of landing my airplane on anything but hard
surfaces, thanks. My taildragger time has been limited to a few hours
in a real Piper Cub, and that airplane does not do a good job in
satisfying my mission requirements for GA (300 to 700 mile trips for
business). As for your parenthetical remark -- I wonder what
distortions in my posts you might have made to come to that
conclusion?
The several M words and Bertie when diverted are doing a good enough
job diluting the quality of this newsgroup.

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
Dylan Smith wrote in
:

On 2008-07-07,
wrote:
If you look at most tail draggers, once the tail comes up the prop
clearance isn't significantly different than that of most trikes.

You don't need to let the tail come up in most tailwheel planes,
though. Taking off from rough/soft fields you're probably going to
want to keep the tail low throughout the takeoff run.


Which is probably the taildragger's biggest strength. A lot of
control over
your attitude and an ability to aply the best for performance at any
given moment.


Bertie

You're exactly right, that make no sense at all.

You sound more like Dudley every day.


By the grace of god..



Bertie

wrote in
:

On Jul 8, 10:49 am, John Smith wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 1:13 pm, John Smith wrote:

Be VERY, VERY careful when doing this on wet grass!
It gets real interesting when the tail is up, the brakes are on,
and the mains are sliding down the runway. :-0

Done that, in a 185, braking as hard as I could with the tail
way up. It'll stop much shorter than the POH says, even when the
grass is wet.

And the surprised look on your face at the time... priceless! :-))
(I know it probably was on mine.)

I was taught be a pro who'd been a bush pilot and a pilot in
Africa, flying with a relief organization that had high standards and
many difficult and seldom-seen techniques. They still do. He showed me
what it would do, then taught me the technique. I've used in in other
taildraggers, too, and it's not difficult if you're current, which I'm
not much anymore. Too little time flying and too much time fixing.
That's what you get when you spend an extra four years becoming an
engineer: the pilots who don't do all that extra work get to do all
the flying. Life seems unfair sometimes.


I still don't see it shoteing the landing roll. Can't see the physics that
would make a wheel landing shorter. I'll just have to try it!

Bertie

Du Haxen Hase wrote in
:

In article , Stealth Pilot
says...

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:11:44 -0500, "Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net
wrote:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Dylan Smith wrote in
:

On 2008-07-07,
wrote:
If you look at most tail draggers, once the tail comes up the
prop clearance isn't significantly different than that of most
trikes.

You don't need to let the tail come up in most tailwheel planes,
though. Taking off from rough/soft fields you're probably going
to want to keep the tail low throughout the takeoff run.


Which is probably the taildragger's biggest strength. A lot of
control over
your attitude and an ability to aply the best for performance at
any given moment.


Bertie

You're exactly right, that make no sense at all.

You sound more like Dudley every day.


maxwell I'm confused. which role in the troll attack are you taking?
are you in the first wave of loons or are you the extremist that
makes everyone seem normal?

I've forgotten. I must hunt down the battle plan again.
Stealth Pilot

Let me help with that...

http://ddi.digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html#item8

The Invasion FAQ of A.S.T.


Although not exactly a FAQ, this file is more of an explanation of why
alt.syntax.tactical and the tactical-list were created. It also lays
down the foundation for the structure, strategy, and protocol of
USENET invasions.


* Invasion *

Each of us brings our own reasons, backgrounds and motivations into
this scheme. What is important is that each individual brings into
this their own brand of inspired mischief. In some ways it is
completely innocent. In some ways it is completely destructive.

Anyone can walk into alt.sex and post that pornography should be
banned. Anyone can walk into rec.sport.baseball and say "baseball
sucks". It takes unbelievable skill and discipline to cause a
PROLONGED flame war. That is what we do. But it can only be done with
talent, and numbers to match that talent. We only bring into the fold
people who have the knack to use smarts to incite chaos, not stupidity
to incite being ignored when people see a post and know what you're up
to.

To keep things running smoothly, Antebi is our 'moderator'. jpdavid
was responsible for creating the mailing-list and setting up the
initial newsgroup. Everyone is equal in suggesting and voting on
invasion sites and other basic day-to-day workings of the group.
Everyone here gains or loses merit only in the invasion arena.


* Waves of Invasion *


Flames and wars between groups are as old as Usenet. What we try to do
is in many ways fundamentally different from what is or has been done
in this area.

After picking a site, we call for an invasion on that site. There are
a number of phases to an invasion. Each person can volunteer for which
wave they want to be in, but more times than not, it is a first come-
first served policy. It is always important that no one jump the gun
and go in before we have time to prepare and bounce ideas off each
other. It's also important that people don't switch waves without
letting everyone know. Flexibility is the key, as is communication.

Typically, we use between two and five Waves of attack. Waves will
generally break down into this kind of structu

a: Reconnaissance (RECON): These people will go in early and usually
set up camp as "friends of the newsgroup". They will become trusted
and participate by joining previous discussions or starting non-
controversial ones themselves. They will also act as "double-agents"
to counter-flame the other waves as the invasion progresses. They key
is building a bit of credibility.

b: Wave One: Wave one will usually be what starts the flame war.
Those involved in this wave can go on and each have a different flame,
or go on and flame in unison. They can bring in a subject of their
own or flame a previous discussion. What matters is that this initial
wave will be the one that the invaded newsgroup will have their
attention on. This wave calls for extreme subtlety. The quality of the
flame MUST be at its highest point here.

c: Wave Two: Wave Two will consist of tactics to attack the people
who
were sent in as recon and attempt to start totally new flame threads.
The key here is that even if we attack a group of people restrained
enough to resist our flame-bait, wave two will stir things up and get
others to join in.

d: Wave Three: Wave three will generally change depending on the
campaign, but will generally be added to push the confusion and chaos
over the top. Flame the recon, flame the first wave, flame the second
wave. These guys are our balls out, rude SOB's. Mop up and clean out.

Sometimes (usually with bigger groups) Wave three will simply be along
the lines of a wave two. We will call for a wave four (or five) to be
the balls out routine. We will sometimes add a wave or two because
depending on the size and intelligence of a newsgroup.

Miscellaneous Tactics:

There are three other things that we typically use, depending on
the sophistication of the invasion.

LOOSE CANNONS are people who come in and act so strange and obtuse
that it makes the rest of the flames look genuine.

THE ANON SERVICE can be used to send posts anonymously. This is a good
way to post and pretend to be scared of retribution. Only problem is
that this is usually the first sign that a post is a flame, so it
should only be used with a TREMENDOUS amount of DISCRETION.

CROSS POSTING is also a popular method of choice by other flame
groups, so it is important to Cross Post with discretion. If we can
cross post to bring in other newsgroups to unwittingly assist us,
perfect. If we cross post to suspicious newsgroups, our intentions
will be obvious.

* Victory *

Ideally, signs of victory are the following:

o Our names appear in killfiles
o Majority or ALL threads in invaded newsgroup were started by us
o Regulars/legit people abandon invaded newsgroup
o Receive much hate mail - as does our SysAdmin
o To be reprimanded by the glorious SysAdmin

* Notes *

Most important is the need to be SUBTLE when it is required. One
misplaced post can ruin it for the rest of us. Those of you who have
participated in widespread flame wars know the feeling of having a
newsgroup going for a long time, then someone posts an obvious flame
or something so far out of context, that everyone says to just ignore
the flames, which eventually includes all of us. Blowing a flame war
will occasionally happen, but if it could have been avoided with a
little thinking, then it's not as excusable.

We've got to share duties. Everyone should get practice playing
different roles and different waves.

It has been assumed that if you don't want to participate, fine. No
one will hold it against you. What is expected is that if you don't
want to participate you don't have to, but that also means that you
wont go warning that newsgroup when an invasion happens. You will
close your eyes and turn a blind eye. NO NEWSGROUP IS OFF LIMITS!!!!!!

Another thing many people seem to be talking about are SIGS AND NAMES.
Try to take on appropriate names. If you are on alt.rap, D.J. Trouble
is not going to stir things up...if you show up on soc.culture.physics
with that name, you're caught before your first word of text. If a Sig
is going to blow your cover, lose it.

Official Kudos:

- under construction -


Me, I just posst



Bertie

Du Haxen Hase wrote in
:

In article , Bertie the
Bunyip says...

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...

Yeah, soft field technique in a tike is just the same as a
tsaildragger, but you can't maintian the high alpha down at low
speeds.

Bertie

You're really stuck on that "alpha" word aren't you. You seem to
use it all the time, lately.


Used it for many years, fjukkwit.

I think you have just been spending a little too much time with
your nose up the lead dogs ass.


Yeh, right, nominee boi.


Voting is going well, though you're behind at the moment. Mind
you,this is what you're competing with...


http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Jamie_Baillie


He's good, but you can do it Maxie! Go on boi!

If at first you don't succeed...

I don't think this will be his last nom


Definitely not! Boi's got poh-tehnshul.





Bertie

wrote in news:fb6e5c00-c3fe-4ab3-8031-
:

On Jul 7, 11:42 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

if a nose up profile on the ground is such an advantage
why not just lengthen the front strut

Now that would be messy! You'd just have a wheelbarrow, then.

Trikes are full of compromises. Lengthen the nose strut (or
inflate it more)to get the prop up away from the rocks and guys who
land too fast will wheelbarrow it. So the manufacturer and the
mechanic both have to take poor airmanship into account.
Give me a taildragger. It won't forgive poor airmanship, so
that a pilot either smartens up or buys a boat.


Yep

Bertie