Winch Launch Fatality

(Spectra/Dyneema rope generates a much more obvious thump than steel.)

Even when it breaks at the winch end? I wouldn't know - I've not yet
flown on the stuff.

It doesn't matter where it breaks - the whole rope weighs around 30
Lbs so the feel in the glider is the same.


Assuming the pilot is monitoring airspeed, a power fade means the nose
will coming down and be down to a normal glide attitude and airspeed as
power is totally lost - just as at the top of a normal launch.

If its a slow fade the airspeed may easily be lower than approach speed.
IME a slow fade is harder to recognize and deal with than a sudden cut or
a break.

Not if the pilot is controlling, or just monitoring, the airspeed.
The pilot will lower the nose appropriately to maintain the selected
airspeed. When the power is all gone, the glider will be gliding at
the selected speed - a perfect recovery even if the pilot didn't
recognize the power failure. Lowering the nose is the signal for more
speed so it works in all cases.

I managed to catch a wing drop on video a couple of years ago and have seen
several others. URL is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_VIfxOV8U

Also look at:

http://flightbox.net/galleries/wingdrop/wingdrop_1.htm

Last year when instructing I had a student who for some reason, possibly
as a reaction to a rather rapidly accelerated winch launch, pulled the
stick hard back and to the left, putting the wing tip on the ground before
I could take over. I had not had any problems with this student on previous
flights with him.

A wing drop is most likely to occur in a semi cross wind and in turbulent
conditions. In the UK we have had a fatal accident, a serious injury
accident and a very badly damaged glider as a result of wing drops in the
last two years. These all happened to very experienced pilots, one of whom
was a Nationals level competition pilot.

IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU!!!

My view is that you should keep your hand on the release knob during a
launch, so that you can release quickly if things go wrong without
fumbling. After a winch launch cable break, the first priority is to get
the nose down and regain flying speed. However the latter will take a few
seconds, during which you can pull the knob. 99% of the time the cable
will back release anyway, but it might not.

We had a sort of reverse incident a couple of years ago, when an early
solo pilot heard a bang, probably caused by a shackle or Tost link pulling
straight, and assumed that he had suffered a cable break. He lowered the
nose to the recovery attitude and then dived UNDER the cable which was
still attached to the glider and in one piece! Fortunately he was able to
land safely straight ahead, but the glider suffered some damage from
hitting the cable and then having it drop on top of the glider.

Derek Copeland

At 23:42 23 June 2009, Andy wrote:

Maybe not, but it's hard to believe the wing drop simulations are
representative. What reasonably trained pilots would stuff the wing
into the ground and then continue to hold full aileron into the low
wing? It would be interesting to see the same scenario simulated with
an external upset causing the wing drop and full recovery aileron
being applied at and after wing tip contact. Throw in various amounts
of drag on the low wing tip to simulate short grass, long grass, etc
and then introduce pilot release before, at, and after wing tip
contact, and I'd start to believe it was a useful training aid.


Andy

On Jun 23, 12:58*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jun 23, 10:10*am, T8 wrote:

On Jun 23, 11:14*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Apart from anything else, your hand should be on the release knob during
the launch

This is surprising to me -- a non-winch-qualified pilot. *Do you do
the same for aero tow?

-T8

It's a good idea for aero tow. *We can all think of accidents where a
life would have been saved if the pilot had pulled the release before
becoming airborne. *It's not only where you put your hand, it's also a
mindset to pull off if something doesn't feel right.

For example, there are several accidents over the years where pilots
took off with disconnected controls. *It's much easier to tow a glider
back to the start line than sweep up the pieces.

There is one less Discus in the world because the pilot had his hand
on the release on a bumpy day. He "in-advertently" pulled the release
at low altitude and crashed into the trees. The pilot was not
injured, but the glider was totaled. If you want to keep your hand on
the release, then hold it some way that prevents turbulence from
releasing it for you.

Todd
3S

Weird stuff seems to happen in Derek's vicinity.

On Jun 24, 12:45*am, Derek Copeland wrote:
I managed to catch a wing drop on video a couple of years ago and have seen
several others. URL is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_VIfxOV8U

Also look at:

http://flightbox.net/galleries/wingdrop/wingdrop_1.htm

Last year when instructing I had a student who for some reason, possibly
as a reaction to a rather rapidly accelerated winch launch, pulled the
stick hard back and to the left, putting the wing tip on the ground before
I could take over. I had not had any problems with this student on previous
flights with him.

A wing drop is most likely to occur in a semi cross wind and in turbulent
conditions. In the UK we have had a fatal accident, a serious injury
accident and a very badly damaged glider as a result of wing drops in the
last two years. These all happened to very experienced pilots, one of whom
was a Nationals level competition pilot.

IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU!!!

My view is that you should keep your hand on the release knob during a
launch, so that you can release quickly if things go wrong without
fumbling. After a winch launch cable break, the first priority is to get
the nose down and regain flying speed. However the latter will take a few
seconds, during which you can pull the knob. 99% of the time the cable
will back release anyway, but it might not.

We had a sort of reverse incident a couple of years ago, when an early
solo pilot heard a bang, probably caused by a shackle or Tost link pulling
straight, and assumed that he had suffered a cable break. He lowered the
nose to the recovery attitude and then dived UNDER the cable which was
still attached to the glider and in one piece! Fortunately he was able to
land safely straight ahead, but the glider suffered some damage from
hitting the cable and then having it drop on top of the glider. *

Derek Copeland

At 23:42 23 June 2009, Andy wrote:



Maybe not, but it's hard to believe the wing drop simulations are
representative. *What reasonably trained pilots would stuff the wing
into the ground and then continue to hold full aileron into the low
wing? *It would be interesting to see the same scenario simulated with
an external upset causing the wing drop and full recovery aileron
being applied at and after wing tip contact. *Throw in various amounts
of drag on the low wing tip to simulate short grass, long grass, etc
and then introduce pilot release before, at, and after wing tip
contact, and I'd start to believe it was a useful training aid.

Andy

On Jun 24, 8:23*am, toad wrote:
On Jun 23, 12:58*pm, bildan wrote:



On Jun 23, 10:10*am, T8 wrote:

On Jun 23, 11:14*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Apart from anything else, your hand should be on the release knob during
the launch

This is surprising to me -- a non-winch-qualified pilot. *Do you do
the same for aero tow?

-T8

It's a good idea for aero tow. *We can all think of accidents where a
life would have been saved if the pilot had pulled the release before
becoming airborne. *It's not only where you put your hand, it's also a
mindset to pull off if something doesn't feel right.

For example, there are several accidents over the years where pilots
took off with disconnected controls. *It's much easier to tow a glider
back to the start line than sweep up the pieces.

There is one less Discus in the world because the pilot had his hand
on the release on a bumpy day. *He "in-advertently" pulled the release
at low altitude and crashed into the trees. * The pilot was not
injured, but the glider was totaled. *If you want to keep your hand on
the release, then hold it some way that prevents turbulence from
releasing it for you.

Todd
3S

First, we're really only talking about an aero tow ground roll. Once
airborne in turbulent air, keeping a death grip on the release isn't a
good idea. Even this isn't always possible with gliders that need
spoilers retracted or flaps moved from negative during the ground
roll. Still, it's a good idea to have "muscle memory" in your left
hand so it can find the release in a hurry. More important is to have
a mindset to pull off if you sense a problem during the ground roll.

Even on a winch ground roll, I don't like a full grip on the release,
just hand contact with it. That way the pilot is unlikely to pull it
inadvertently but can pull it intentionally if needed.

On Jun 23, 5:42*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jun 23, 4:18*pm, ucsdcpc wrote:

have a look at the simulation videos on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...nch-safety.htm

you don't have a lot of time to find the release knob if a wing drops

Maybe not, but it's hard to believe the wing drop simulations are
representative. *What reasonably trained pilots would stuff the wing
into the ground and then continue to hold full aileron into the low
wing? *It would be interesting to see the same scenario simulated with
an external upset causing the wing drop and full recovery aileron
being applied at and after wing tip contact. *Throw in various amounts
of drag on the low wing tip to simulate short grass, long grass, etc
and then introduce pilot release before, at, and after wing tip
contact, and I'd start to believe it was a useful training aid.

Andy

It's realistic in the sense that the most likely way a wing would go
down is if the pilot does, in fact, "stuff it down". Unfortunately,
you just have to watch a few takeoffs to see it happen. One of my
frustrations is pilots who seem to have no idea where their ailerons
are until a wingtip hits the ground.

If the pilot consciously centers the ailerons as part of the pre-
takeoff checks and lets the wing runner balance the glider, the glider
will just stay balanced on its own for several seconds after the wing
runner lets go - long enough to get aileron control on either aero
tow or winch. That's good practice with any launch method.

On Jun 24, 11:05*am, bildan wrote:
On Jun 24, 8:23*am, toad wrote:





On Jun 23, 12:58*pm, bildan wrote:

On Jun 23, 10:10*am, T8 wrote:

On Jun 23, 11:14*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Apart from anything else, your hand should be on the release knob during
the launch

This is surprising to me -- a non-winch-qualified pilot. *Do you do
the same for aero tow?

-T8

It's a good idea for aero tow. *We can all think of accidents where a
life would have been saved if the pilot had pulled the release before
becoming airborne. *It's not only where you put your hand, it's also a
mindset to pull off if something doesn't feel right.

For example, there are several accidents over the years where pilots
took off with disconnected controls. *It's much easier to tow a glider
back to the start line than sweep up the pieces.

There is one less Discus in the world because the pilot had his hand
on the release on a bumpy day. *He "in-advertently" pulled the release
at low altitude and crashed into the trees. * The pilot was not
injured, but the glider was totaled. *If you want to keep your hand on
the release, then hold it some way that prevents turbulence from
releasing it for you.

Todd
3S

First, we're really only talking about an aero tow ground roll. *Once
airborne in turbulent air, keeping a death grip on the release isn't a
good idea. *Even this isn't always possible with gliders that need
spoilers retracted or flaps moved from negative during the ground
roll. *Still, it's a good idea to have "muscle memory" in your left
hand so it can find the release in a hurry. *More important is to have
a mindset to pull off if you sense a problem during the ground roll.

Even on a winch ground roll, I don't like a full grip on the release,
just hand contact with it. *That way *the pilot is unlikely to pull it
inadvertently but can pull it intentionally if needed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just remember to give these cautions to any pilot that you tell "keep
your hand on the release" during takeoff.

Todd
3S

I knew that agreeing with Bill Daniels was too good to last!

Given a vaguely competent pilot, the most likely cause of a wing drop is a
gust, especially if there is a cross-wind component. That is what happened
in the series of photos that show a K13 standing on it's starboard
wingtip. I put a link into this in an earlier posting. Please note that
full opposite aileron and rudder is being applied throughout this
incident!

On the subject of not accidentally pulling the release knob as a result of
holding it, you need to arrange the cockpit so you are not holding the
release at full stretch.

Some glass single seaters are very good at hiding the release knob almost
out of reach somewhere below your crutch and behind the stick. On my own
glider I have extended the cable so it is easier to reach the knob (with
the approval of a BGA Inspector I hasten to add).

The last fatal cartwheel accident in the UK involved an ASW20L glider. If
you read the aaib report, they concluded that once the stick was hard over
to the left, which it would have been as it was the right wing that
dropped, it would have been almost impossible to get to the release knob
if you weren't holding it already!

Derek Copeland


At 15:29 24 June 2009, bildan wrote:
On Jun 23, 5:42=A0pm, Andy wrote:
On Jun 23, 4:18=A0pm, ucsdcpc wrote:

have a look at the simulation videos on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...nch-safety.htm

you don't have a lot of time to find the release knob if a wing
drops

Maybe not, but it's hard to believe the wing drop simulations are
representative. =A0What reasonably trained pilots would stuff the wing
into the ground and then continue to hold full aileron into the low
wing? =A0It would be interesting to see the same scenario simulated
with
an external upset causing the wing drop and full recovery aileron
being applied at and after wing tip contact. =A0Throw in various
amounts
of drag on the low wing tip to simulate short grass, long grass, etc
and then introduce pilot release before, at, and after wing tip
contact, and I'd start to believe it was a useful training aid.

Andy

It's realistic in the sense that the most likely way a wing would go
down is if the pilot does, in fact, "stuff it down". Unfortunately,
you just have to watch a few takeoffs to see it happen. One of my
frustrations is pilots who seem to have no idea where their ailerons
are until a wingtip hits the ground.

If the pilot consciously centers the ailerons as part of the pre-
takeoff checks and lets the wing runner balance the glider, the glider
will just stay balanced on its own for several seconds after the wing
runner lets go - long enough to get aileron control on either aero
tow or winch. That's good practice with any launch method.

On Jun 24, 10:45*am, Del C wrote:
I knew that agreeing with Bill Daniels was too good to last!

Given a vaguely competent pilot, the most likely cause of a wing drop is a
gust, especially if there is a cross-wind component. That is what happened
in the series of photos that show a K13 standing on it's starboard
wingtip. I put a link into this in an earlier posting. Please note that
full opposite aileron and rudder is being applied throughout this
incident!

On the subject of not accidentally pulling the release knob as a result of
holding it, you need to arrange the cockpit so you are not holding the
release at full stretch.

Some glass single seaters are very good at hiding the release knob almost
out of reach somewhere below your crutch and behind the stick. On my own
glider I have extended the cable so it is easier to reach the knob (with
the approval of a BGA Inspector I hasten to add).

The last fatal cartwheel accident in the UK involved an ASW20L glider. If
you read the aaib report, they concluded that once the stick was hard over
to the left, which it would have been as it was the right wing that
dropped, it would have been almost impossible to get to the release knob
if you weren't holding it already!

Derek Copeland

At 15:29 24 June 2009, bildan wrote:

On Jun 23, 5:42=A0pm, Andy *wrote:
On Jun 23, 4:18=A0pm, ucsdcpc *wrote:

have a look at the simulation videos on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...nch-safety.htm

you don't have a lot of time to find the release knob if a wing
drops

Maybe not, but it's hard to believe the wing drop simulations are
representative. =A0What reasonably trained pilots would stuff the wing
into the ground and then continue to hold full aileron into the low
wing? =A0It would be interesting to see the same scenario simulated
with
an external upset causing the wing drop and full recovery aileron
being applied at and after wing tip contact. =A0Throw in various
amounts
of drag on the low wing tip to simulate short grass, long grass, etc
and then introduce pilot release before, at, and after wing tip
contact, and I'd start to believe it was a useful training aid.

Andy

It's realistic in the sense that the most likely way a wing would go
down is if the pilot does, in fact, "stuff it down". *Unfortunately,
you just have to watch a few takeoffs to see it happen. *One of my
frustrations is pilots who seem to have no idea where their ailerons
are until a wingtip hits the ground.

If the pilot consciously centers the ailerons as part of the pre-
takeoff checks and lets the wing runner balance the glider, the glider
will just stay balanced on its own for several seconds after the wing
runner lets go *- long enough to get aileron control on either aero
tow or winch. *That's good practice with any launch method.

What I see in that K-13 sequence is the parachute disappearing off the
left side of the frame after it was released. It gives the appearance
the glider was staged at least 30 degrees off the line of sight to the
winch. I also don't see any aileron or rudder applied in the first
frame with the wing on the ground indicating the pilot was WAAY behind
the glider.

Blaming this 100% on a gust seems a reach.

Fully agree with Derek, it stands to reason that an inadvertant cable
release at any moment in the launch is less risky that failure to release
instantly if things start to go wrong.

Its doesn't have to be white nuckle grip, but hlold it you must!

Eventualities before launch will cover the recovery scenario for the
launch ahead no matter it is a cable break or accidental/deliberate cable
release.

Even well away from the ground, the relative merit seems to remain.

David.

At 16:45 24 June 2009, Del C wrote:
I knew that agreeing with Bill Daniels was too good to last!

Given a vaguely competent pilot, the most likely cause of a wing drop is
a
gust, especially if there is a cross-wind component. That is what
happened
in the series of photos that show a K13 standing on it's starboard
wingtip. I put a link into this in an earlier posting. Please note that
full opposite aileron and rudder is being applied throughout this
incident!

On the subject of not accidentally pulling the release knob as a result
of
holding it, you need to arrange the cockpit so you are not holding the
release at full stretch.

Some glass single seaters are very good at hiding the release knob
almost
out of reach somewhere below your crutch and behind the stick. On my own
glider I have extended the cable so it is easier to reach the knob (with
the approval of a BGA Inspector I hasten to add).

The last fatal cartwheel accident in the UK involved an ASW20L glider.
If
you read the aaib report, they concluded that once the stick was hard
over
to the left, which it would have been as it was the right wing that
dropped, it would have been almost impossible to get to the release knob
if you weren't holding it already!

Derek Copeland


At 15:29 24 June 2009, bildan wrote:
On Jun 23, 5:42=A0pm, Andy wrote:
On Jun 23, 4:18=A0pm, ucsdcpc wrote:

have a look at the simulation videos on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...nch-safety.htm

you don't have a lot of time to find the release knob if a wing
drops

Maybe not, but it's hard to believe the wing drop simulations are
representative. =A0What reasonably trained pilots would stuff the
wing
into the ground and then continue to hold full aileron into the low
wing? =A0It would be interesting to see the same scenario simulated
with
an external upset causing the wing drop and full recovery aileron
being applied at and after wing tip contact. =A0Throw in various
amounts
of drag on the low wing tip to simulate short grass, long grass, etc
and then introduce pilot release before, at, and after wing tip
contact, and I'd start to believe it was a useful training aid.

Andy

It's realistic in the sense that the most likely way a wing would go
down is if the pilot does, in fact, "stuff it down". Unfortunately,
you just have to watch a few takeoffs to see it happen. One of my
frustrations is pilots who seem to have no idea where their ailerons
are until a wingtip hits the ground.

If the pilot consciously centers the ailerons as part of the pre-
takeoff checks and lets the wing runner balance the glider, the glider
will just stay balanced on its own for several seconds after the wing
runner lets go - long enough to get aileron control on either aero
tow or winch. That's good practice with any launch method.