Spins, Spiral Dives and Training

On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

Ian

That is a bit unfair on the K21!. The training glider that has killed the
most pilots in spin related accidents in the UK is easily the Puchacz,
latest count about 14 I believe.

The K21 is a very safe glider in itself, but even that will do enough of a
wing drop to have you into the ground off a poorly executed low final turn.
My club still uses K13s as its basic trainer as it will just about drop
wings and spin if you force it to, but it is still more docile than many
single seaters.

You are getting into the debate about whether deliberate spin training
kills more people than accidental spins.

I know from personal experience that an unexpected spin, e.g. in a rough
thermal, can come as a bit of a shock, and it can take time to remember
what to do about it.

Derek Copeland

At 09:17 03 July 2009, Ian wrote:
On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

Ian

In message
, Ian
writes
On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

However the two recent accidents both involved US pilots, presumably
trained in the US. Is the K21 so ubiquitous over there?

BTW have seen folks allowed to fly the K21 solo without spin training,
but *not* the Juniors.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

On Jul 3, 7:38*am, Surfer! wrote:
In message
, Ian
writes

On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

However the two recent accidents both involved US pilots, presumably
trained in the US. *Is the K21 so ubiquitous over there?

BTW have seen folks allowed to fly the K21 solo without spin training,
but *not* the Juniors.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

Don't think the accidents had anything to do with training and
certainly nothing to do with the K21 or whatever other ships they may
have trained in. These were experienced competition pilots.

-T8

At 11:00 03 July 2009, Del C wrote: (Snip)
The training glider that has killed the
most pilots in spin related accidents in the UK is easily the Puchacz,
latest count about 14 I believe.

And no positively identified cause, the conclusion has always been that
the spin in was caused by an error of skill by the pilot but that is
difficult to confirm. It could be that under certain loading conditions
the Putchaz is irrecoverable from a spin, we may never know for certain.
We do know that the Putchaz is a very dangerous glider, and has been
involved in more than it's fair share of accidents.

You are getting into the debate about whether deliberate spin training
kills more people than accidental spins.

There is no debate, more people are killed in deliberately induced spins
than in accidental ones and yet people still deliberately spin at
ridiculously low altitudes, and by that I mean below 2500ft.

This despite the fact that knowing the spin recovery procedure would be
unlikely to help in the most common spin, that off the final turn. The
only thing that would help there is spotting the impending spin before it
happened but little or no emphasis is placed on this in current training.
We have the situation where the most life threatening situation is not
addressed by proper training and an aspect, which gives an instructor the
opportunity to scare his pupil witless, is very well covered.
Current spin training is more about addressing the needs of the
instructors than about addressing the need of their pupils. I would
suggest that not commencing spin recovery procedure in a low spin, as off
the final turn, would be more likely to save your life than getting part
way through the recovery.

More emphasis is needed on recognition of the lead up and prevention, if
that was done properly then we might improve things. By all means teach it
but rather than checking recovery every year check the ability to recognise
and prevent. Less risk and the potential of greater benefit, it would also
reduce the need for clubs to own the potentially lethal Putchaz as the
recognition and prevention could be done in any two seater.

On Jul 3, 5:59*am, T8 wrote:
On Jul 3, 7:38*am, Surfer! wrote:



In message
, Ian
writes

On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

However the two recent accidents both involved US pilots, presumably
trained in the US. *Is the K21 so ubiquitous over there?

BTW have seen folks allowed to fly the K21 solo without spin training,
but *not* the Juniors.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

Don't think the accidents had anything to do with training and
certainly nothing to do with the K21 or whatever other ships they may
have trained in. *These were experienced competition pilots.

-T8

The following has nothing to do with the UK which seems to exist in a
parallel universe with different laws of physics - at least as Derek
describes it.

If the training isn't current, it really doesn't matter too much what
it was. Without comment on the accidents still under investigation,
many 'competition pilots' only fly at contests and haven't flown more
than 20 flights a year in decades. I think we might eliminate a few
'contest accidents' by instituting a currency requirement for
competitors.

Angle of attack indicators are far more than stall warning devices.
They provide extremely accurate and timely information about wing
performance. However, they can also be the basis of a stall warning
device.

Since most glide computers already display height above terrain data,
a stall warning could become louder and more insistent as the glider
gets near the ground and/or the landing gear is extended.

On 3 July, 12:00, Del C wrote:
That is a bit unfair on the K21!. The training glider that has killed the
most pilots in spin related accidents in the UK is easily the Puchacz,
latest count about 14 I believe.

That is, if I may say so, the mistake too many people make. Sure, more
people have died in the Puchacz, but I am quite sure that the K21 has
killed a lot more indirectly.

I know from personal experience that an unexpected spin, e.g. in a rough
thermal, can come as a bit of a shock, and it can take time to remember
what to do about it.

Don't we all?

Ian

On 3 July, 15:45, Don Johnstone wrote:

We do know that the Putchaz is a very dangerous glider, and has been
involved in more than it's fair share of accidents.

That is a correlation, not a causation. Most Puchacz spin accidents
occur with instructors on board: perhaps the problem lies with
instructor training?

You are getting into the debate about whether deliberate spin training
kills more people than accidental spins.

There is no debate, more people are killed in deliberately induced spins
than in accidental ones...

That's meaningless unless we know how many deliberate and accidental
spins there are, what proportion result in deaths, and how many
deliberate spins those who die in accidental ones have done.

And I'm still not sure I believe it. How many of the spins of a broken
cable or at the final turn are deliberate.

Less risk and the potential of greater benefit, it would also
reduce the need for clubs to own the potentially lethal Putchaz as the
recognition and prevention could be done in any two seater.

As long as there are spinnable single seaters out there, that's just
asking for trouble.

Ian

On 3 July, 12:38, Surfer! wrote:

BTW have seen folks allowed to fly the K21 solo without spin training,
but *not* the Juniors.

Juniors have a complicated spin mode which is generally three turns
nose down and recoverable, three flat and unrecoverable, rinse,
repeat. If you don't recover in the first three turns (Turn 1: ****,
better get the nose up. Turn 2: why didn't that work? Turn 3: What's
spin recovery again?) you just have to sweat it out for a few hundred
feet or your current altitude, whichever is less.

Ian

Hi Ian,

I have spun our club's Junior and have never seen those different cycles.
However, I weigh about 190 Lbs plus parachute. I'm sure the spin
characteristics are very different at different weights. I thought the
Junior spun aggressively, but I found it easy to exit the spin immediately
after multiple (I don't recall how many - maybe 3 or 4) rotations. I love
spinning gliders!

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"Ian" wrote in message
...
On 3 July, 12:38, Surfer! wrote:

BTW have seen folks allowed to fly the K21 solo without spin training,
but *not* the Juniors.

Juniors have a complicated spin mode which is generally three turns
nose down and recoverable, three flat and unrecoverable, rinse,
repeat. If you don't recover in the first three turns (Turn 1: ****,
better get the nose up. Turn 2: why didn't that work? Turn 3: What's
spin recovery again?) you just have to sweat it out for a few hundred
feet or your current altitude, whichever is less.

Ian