US Competition Rules

On Feb 22, 7:28*pm, wrote:

There was a conscious decision not to change MSH in rules as it also
then affects scoring equations and the scoring program.


Ok, it was deliberate, but you didn't answer the question "How would
MSH be specified under this rule for the scenario outlined above? How
will MSH be specified as MSL without conflicting with the definition
of MSH?

What definition of top of start cylinder will be printed on the task
sheet under the new rule for the scenario I defined?

Some is us that found the MSH definition used for years to be
completely unambiguous now have to find a new understanding.




Andy

On Feb 22, 10:18*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
Just to expand a little on UH...

The CD will decide on a start height -- 3500 or more AGL, 10,000 or
less AGL, 500 feet below the clouds or tops of dry thermals, thinking
about how long it takes late starters to climb, etc.

The CD will then do the heavy math to translate this height to MSL and
he'll announce a MSL start top with nice big even numbers. Now you
look at your MSL altimeter and know if you're over the top or not. No
more trying to decide if you're over or under 6342 feet MSL because
the airport was at 1342.

This should avoid addition mistakes (which I have made too), *start
gates with weird MSL heights, endless radio calls to the advisers
asking MSL or AGL altitudes and so forth. It should also avoid
confusion we had last year with scorers and winscore getting confused
with each other over MSL/AGL

Same on finishing. The CD will decide a decent height for airport,
traffic, terrain, and announce a MSL height so it's easy and quick to
see if you're over or under.

John Cochrane BB

Much better, Thanks !
Now if we can figure out how to avoid the pile-up just below
the top of the start cylinder...

Thanks again,
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

On Feb 22, 8:18*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
Just to expand a little on UH...

The CD will decide on a start height -- 3500 or more AGL, 10,000 or
less AGL, 500 feet below the clouds or tops of dry thermals, thinking
about how long it takes late starters to climb, etc.

The CD will then do the heavy math to translate this height to MSL and
he'll announce a MSL start top with nice big even numbers. Now you
look at your MSL altimeter and know if you're over the top or not. No
more trying to decide if you're over or under 6342 feet MSL because
the airport was at 1342.

This should avoid addition mistakes (which I have made too), *start
gates with weird MSL heights, endless radio calls to the advisers
asking MSL or AGL altitudes and so forth. It should also avoid
confusion we had last year with scorers and winscore getting confused
with each other over MSL/AGL

Same on finishing. The CD will decide a decent height for airport,
traffic, terrain, and announce a MSL height so it's easy and quick to
see if you're over or under.

John Cochrane BB

All well and good but rule 10.8.5.1.3 should then read "The Top of the
start cylinder shall be specified and labeled as MSL."

This avoids the conflict with the definition of MSH and removes the
considerable confusion caused by the conflicting rules, especially for
those that didn't find the old rules confusing at all.

Please don't add to the confusion by mixing the terms height and
altitude. I hope the CD, under the new rules, will announce a maximum
start altitude and a minimum finish altitude. Use the term height and
the confusion starts all over again.

Andy

Andy for Rules Committtee!

I have to agree with Andy - Height and Altitude are different animals!

I also agree with the intent of the change, since it always seemed
absurd to specify a start height, with the resulting "Math in the
Cockpit" nightmare - especially when flying at a new constest site.

At the risk of adding more complication, perhaps we need to add some
new terms/definitions:

Maximum Start Altitude (MSA): Maximum Start Height (MSH), as set by
the CD, adjusted for start point elevation. This is the number given
to the contest pilots during the task briefing. It is an altitude -
you read it off your altimeter, set to local QNH.

Minimum Finish Altitude (MFA): Minimum Finish Height (MFH), as set by
the CD, adjusted for finish point elevation. This is the number given
to the contest pilots during the task briefing. It is an altitude -
you read it off your altimeter, set to local QNH.

Yeah, I know, more rules - but the devil is in the details, as usual.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

There was a concious decision not to change MSH in rules as it also
then affects scoring equations and the scoring program.

Too late, the scoring program is already affected. Given the obvious
confusion this issue generates, the user interface of the scoring
program will have to be changed to clearly indicate to the scorer
which altitude is to be entered.

Guy Byars

On Feb 23, 8:47*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
I have to agree with Andy - Height and Altitude are different animals!

I also agree with the intent of the change, since it always seemed
absurd to specify a start height, with the resulting "Math in the
Cockpit" nightmare - especially when flying at a new constest site.

At the risk of adding more complication, perhaps we need to add some
new terms/definitions:

Maximum Start Altitude (MSA): *Maximum Start Height (MSH), as set by
the CD, adjusted for start point elevation. *This is the number given
to the contest pilots during the task briefing. *It is an altitude -
you read it off your altimeter, set to local QNH.

Minimum Finish Altitude (MFA): *Minimum Finish Height (MFH), as set by
the CD, adjusted for finish point elevation. This is the number given
to the contest pilots during the task briefing. *It is an altitude -
you read it off your altimeter, set to local QNH.

Yeah, I know, more rules - but the devil is in the details, as usual.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

We will revisit the language in the next rules cycle.
Rules for 2010 are complete and approved.
Cheers
UH

wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 8:47 am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
I have to agree with Andy - Height and Altitude are different animals!

I also agree with the intent of the change, since it always seemed
absurd to specify a start height, with the resulting "Math in the
Cockpit" nightmare - especially when flying at a new constest site.

At the risk of adding more complication, perhaps we need to add some
new terms/definitions:

Maximum Start Altitude (MSA): Maximum Start Height (MSH), as set by
the CD, adjusted for start point elevation. This is the number given
to the contest pilots during the task briefing. It is an altitude -
you read it off your altimeter, set to local QNH.

Minimum Finish Altitude (MFA): Minimum Finish Height (MFH), as set by
the CD, adjusted for finish point elevation. This is the number given
to the contest pilots during the task briefing. It is an altitude -
you read it off your altimeter, set to local QNH.

Yeah, I know, more rules - but the devil is in the details, as usual.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

We will revisit the language in the next rules cycle.
Rules for 2010 are complete and approved.
Cheers
UH

I like the change! Makes life simpler. Thanks.

Hartley Falbaum
"KF" USA

Too late, the scoring program is already affected.

Sorry to hear that. I'm so old I remember when the programmer was in
charge of the program, not the other way round.

Thanks to all you guys working on the rules - a thankless job at best!

Good luck on the grid this year!

Kirk
66