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#11
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Thanks for the thread Bob. Interesting discussion.
Agreed. I'm a little surprised, though, that throughout the entire discussion there has been no mention of the FAA's efforts in Aero Decision Making, particularly those addressing "hazardous thoughts". Maybe I missed it. While a broad systematic description of problem solving can at times insult our intelligence, AC 60-22 is nonetheless filled with great and *actionable* insights. Without question, the approaches described in ADM have improved my own safety -- both in the air and on the ground. Maybe that's more a commentary on my own lifestyle? :-) Ac 60-22 can be found online at http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/ Perhaps coincidentally, I'm in the middle of reading Tom Knauff's "Accident Prevention Manual for Glider Pilots" as well his APM for Flight Instructors. It's largely an exposition of ADM, esp. hazardous attitudes, but in a much more consumable form. The more angles from which you look at this problem, probably the better. ADM, however, is well thought out and is largely at a theoretical level, meaning it covers all the space one might try to cover with anecdotes... and then all the spaces in between the anecdotes. If you haven't read it, yet, you should. If it has been a while, it's well worth a solid review. |
#12
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On Mar 1, 9:50*am, ken wrote:
Thanks for the thread Bob. Interesting discussion. Agreed. I'm a little surprised, though, that throughout the entire discussion there has been no mention of the FAA's efforts in Aero Decision Making, particularly those addressing "hazardous thoughts". Maybe I missed it. While a broad systematic description of problem solving can at times insult our intelligence, AC 60-22 is nonetheless filled with great and *actionable* insights. Without question, the approaches described in ADM have improved my own safety -- both in the air and on the ground. Maybe that's more a commentary on my own lifestyle? :-) Ac 60-22 can be found online at * *http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/ Perhaps coincidentally, I'm in the middle of reading Tom Knauff's "Accident Prevention Manual for Glider Pilots" as well his APM for Flight Instructors. It's largely an exposition of ADM, esp. hazardous attitudes, but in a much more consumable form. The more angles from which you look at this problem, probably the better. ADM, however, is well thought out and is largely at a theoretical level, meaning it covers all the space one might try to cover with anecdotes... and then all the spaces in between the anecdotes. If you haven't read it, yet, you should. If it has been a while, it's well worth a solid review. One thought that always seems to flit through my mind just after completing the final cockpit check is, "If I screw this up, I'll be the lead story on the 10PM news - better be careful." I think Bob's point is that, absent knowledge, skill and a disciplined, safe mindset, we CAN screw up. It's only that which prevents crashes. |
#13
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toad wrote:
Bob, I think I start to understand your thesis, but I have to tell you, brevity is not your strong suite. No? :-) - - - - - - So, If I really truly believe that I can have an accident, I will pay close attention to all possible dangers and work hard not to have an accident. I think that I can boil your thesis down to 2 principles: 1) Pay attention 2) Don't push the limits Does that fit your model? 1) certainly does. 2) does not. I have no philosophical problem with pushing one's limits...it's a great way to get better after all. What one's limits are 'simply' need to be known, and pushed 'wisely.' (What might go wrong if I do this next thing...? How will I address it?) - - - - - - - I will assume that it does and forge ahead with my comments. I completely agree with "Pay attention", no issues at all. The other one though has 2 issues. 2a) It's hard to know where the limits are (sometimes). This is where specific knowledge comes into play. Even if you are paying attention and trying to stay conservatively back from the limits, if you have a false concept of where the safe limit is, you can't be safe. Therefore to improve pilot safety, you must improve knowledge of where the safe limits actually are. Indeed. Personal research, listening more than contributing to hangar sessions [other than insightful questions, I mean :-)], and merely understanding the truth of your working premise immeedjutly above definitely apply, here. 2b) I enjoy pushing the limits. :-) Have at it...thoughtfully, as incrementally as possible, and intelligently! Thank you Todd Thanks for puzzling over my prolix discourse. :-) Regards, Bob W. |
#14
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Andy wrote:
On Feb 28, 8:19 pm, Bob Whelan wrote: As to your first point above Andy, FWIW if you ever feel invulnerable or 'absolutely safe' aloft in a glider, my fundamental reasoning is your assumptions could do with additional self-scrutiny. :-) What did I ever say to you that would suggest that I feel invulnerable while flying anything? I apologize if I unintentionally and accidentally poked personally. I was simply trying to end the previous reply re-iterating an important general point I hope might be thoughtfully new to some readers. For example, while admiring approaching dusk aloft from a glider, I try to keep part of my brain 'nervous' about the possibility of mid-airs; I think it helps my scan. Regards, Bob W. |
#15
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ken wrote:
Snip... I'm a little surprised, though, that throughout the entire discussion there has been no mention of the FAA's efforts in Aero Decision Making, particularly those addressing "hazardous thoughts". Maybe I missed it. Snip... Ac 60-22 can be found online at http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/ Perhaps coincidentally, I'm in the middle of reading Tom Knauff's "Accident Prevention Manual for Glider Pilots" as well his APM for Flight Instructors. It's largely an exposition of ADM, esp. hazardous attitudes, but in a much more consumable form. The more angles from which you look at this problem, probably the better. "Roger that!" ADM, however, is well thought out and is largely at a theoretical level, meaning it covers all the space one might try to cover with anecdotes... and then all the spaces in between the anecdotes. If you haven't read it, yet, you should. If it has been a while, it's well worth a solid review. "What Ken said." Available via 24k land-line, even. Typically heavy reading in the 'pure government-ese' form; summaries have (re-)appeared in "Soaring" magazine down the years; good food for actionable thought, indeed! May the rest of this year's soaring accidents be entirely 'fate induced...' Regards, Bob W. |
#16
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On Feb 27, 11:06*am, Bob Whelan wrote:
* * * * Instant, Absolutely Perfect, and Permanent Soaring Safety * * * * * * * * * * * * (Without Government ‘Help’) We all want it. I know how to achieve it...and it does NOT involve sending me money, taking any of my (non-existent) courses, or cadres of ‘safety nazis’ or ‘safety nannys.’ It doesn’t involve recurrent training (unless you want it, of course). It doesn’t matter what bona-fides instructors have. It doesn’t even matter how often or much you fly as PIC of a glider. And here’s the best part...it’s free!!! Now I’ll bet some readers are skeptical. I was too, once. For you skeptics out there, I’ll be up-front with my own bona fides. I have a U.S.-issued PP-G certificate, have never taken more than 54 tows annually post-training, haven’t exceeded 20 annually since 2000, will probably never add on the commercial or instructor ratings, have but 2/3 of my Silver Badge (lacking the distance, of course), have bailed out of only one (single-seat) glider and minorly bent but two more, have had fewer than 10 friends and probably fewer than 10 additional acquaintances die in glider accidents, and have personally witnessed but one fatal glider accident (winch launch structural failure). Point being, though I lack any cite-able experience in the professional safety fields, I - like most alert RAS readers - feel generally capable of recognizing the absence of safety, even though I’ve never injured a passenger, airport bystander or glider I’ve not been piloting myself. So bear with me - it’s been a tiresome winter in much of the northern hemisphere... Understand, the term ‘safety’ as used herein means 100% absence of soaring accidents and incidents, whether of the ‘stupid soaring pilot’ trick sort, the ‘thin margin’ sort, or any other sort short of ‘fate.’ And as soon as mankind learns how to predict sudden death and incapacitation, I’ll include all ‘fate’ accidents EXcluding ‘structural fate.’ I don’t know how to prevent the latter, despite an aging aerospace engineering degree, and doubt anyone will learn how in my lifetime. Fortunately, ‘structural fate’ accidents are extremely rare in human soaring’s 99-year history, at least the latter half of it. I apologize for this one limitation to today’s presentation. With the meaning of ‘safety’ understood, it’s trivially easy to analyze all official reports of glider accidents and incidents and instantly identify a universal thread NOT in every last one of them. Genetically insert that thread into all future soaring flights' pilots' thinking, and all future accidents and incidents will be eliminated, because in this case correlation *IS* indicative of causation. What’s missing is the thought, the belief, the fully comprehended and hence always actionable ‘sense’ that this (stupid glider pilot trick-based, thin margin-based, ignorance-based, etc.) ‘thing’ *could* happen to me...no matter how much time I have, how experienced I am (overall or merely in this ship), or how Godlike my gifts to pilot-dom and my fellow, admiring pilot-friends. Having such thinking in some active portion of a glider pilot’s mind is the closest thing to being inoculated against a future accident or incident any glider pilot could ever hope to acquire. Guaranteed, or your money back. Now I’m not going to *bet* any actual money I’m never going to have another glider incident or accident, but I’m pretty darned certain I’m not going to die from an inadvertent stall/spin in the pattern, hit another glider/fence/innocent-bystander/vehicle/etc. after landing, pull my wings off, hit a ridge, miss (short or long) my intended landing area, or otherwise wind up (again) in the NTSB database due to reasons *not* beyond my control. I have this ‘certainty’ because I truly, actively and ‘always’ believe that I am NOT immune from these sorts of things. Far better pilots than I have died from them. Others will have a higher risk of following them if they do NOT so believe. Meantime, because believe, I work really hard to avoid such things. I don’t mind my paranoia in this particular instance; I consider it a *good* thing. Somebody IS out to get me, and if I’m not really and continually careful, it’s going to be ME! Inadvertent pattern stall/spin?...like playing on the freeway, “Kids! Don’t DO it!!!” I don’t consider such ‘self-inoculatory’ thinking arrogant; I consider it a high form of humility. I’m a cowardly, fearful, humble sort of glider pilot, immensely grateful for every future moment of stick time, actively determined to maximize personal potential for more. I truly think that way (and have, now, for many years) no matter how current – or not – I am. I apply the same thinking to my driving, too, and it's worked perfectly since 1982 (when I started applying the thought pattern). That includes thousands of miles of towing brakeless glider trailers all around the intermountain west behind a 2,600 lb, drum-braked, 1972 vehicle...including an absurdly heavy, double-axled, 2-32 trailer w. 2-32 across the central Rocky Mountains. Of course, I've never driven a glider trailer over 85 mph, so my experience has its limits, though I did have an unstable trailer (cured by moving the axle aft), and have BTDT with an on-road "Holy $#*t!!!" instability-induced moment. Point being, believing you CAN have an accident, definitely affects how you do things, whether we’re talking about using a table saw, driving, soaring, or sex. ANYthing. If you’re a believer that actions have consequences (and I’ve yet to meet a soaring pilot who isn’t), then believing inattention, ignorance, overconfidence - hell, FLIGHT - all have potential for very serious consequences WILL affect your flying judgment. For the better. And, it’s free. (Woo hoo!!!) Please – no thanks are necessary. - - - - - - Post Script: Believe it or not, I’m completely uninterested in hearing why anyone disagrees with my Pollyannish vision of soaring perfection - but probably not for any reason angry or dismissive readers might guess. That said, by all means, flame away. Think hard about where and how I’ve missed the boat, and share your own visions. If by so doing, your own flying future safety improves, THAT will make my day, because I don’t really care who agrees or disagrees with me. What I sincerely DO care about is reading fewer avoidable accidents and incidents in “Soaring” magazine, the NTSB database, and anywhere else, in the days and years ahead. Further, not being a believer in ‘safety at any cost,’ I’m a big fan of improving soaring safety as inexpensively as possible. I also believe we can do it. P.P.S.: Interested readers need look no further than Captain Chesley Sullenberger’s recent book “Highest Duty – My Search for What Really Matters” for a compelling example of the accuracy that truth underlies my underlying claim that how a person thinks, matters. I suspect more than a few U.S. glider pilots were disappointed to learn ‘Sully’ gave his glider training zero credit for his deciding to ditch the Airbus he was commanding in the Hudson River January, 2009, after losing both engines to birds. I wasn’t disappointed. On the other hand, my worldview gives him even greater credit for coming to the best conclusion deSPITE not being able to credit glider training to his thinking & actions that day. (I suspect he’s in the minority of ‘power-only’ pilots in his demonstrated ability to think/act ‘outside the normal safety box,’ quickly and decisively making a basic decision so utterly foreign to ‘normal’ power-pilot thinking.) What allowed him to 'go there' was (paraphrasing from his book) a long-standing interest in safety, a desire to learn from others’ mistakes, and believing that ‘it’ could happen to him...even though he never thought it would. (It’s a great book for lots of other reasons, too, incidentally...) P.P.P.S.: We return now to our regularly scheduled newsgroup… Well said Bob...............my buddies and I will usually high-5 and generally strut around like studs after a particular gratifying flight, but during private de-briefing sessions we all agree that it was heads up flying, and we all posses a healthy respect for what we are doing, and believe it or not, are actually humble about these sorts of things. Knowing full well that what we do carries with it the risk of pain, or death, or loosing your toy and not being able to play anymore. Brad |
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